1995 Park Avenue Issues - PLEASE HELP!!!

I have a 1995 Buick Park Avenue. It will just randomly go dead. You never know when it's gonna do it. It could be while you're at a red light or stop sign or while you're slowing down to come to a red light or whatever. But, it can also happen when you're going 65 mph down the road. There's no pattern at all; when it decides to do it, it just does it.

When it does go dead, sometimes you can put it in neutral and it will crank right up..no problems. Other times, it will not crank. Then, after it sits a little while, it will finally crank up.

This can happen at any time. You could drive a 45 min. drive and it not go dead at all. Other times, you could only make a 15 min. trip to the store and it will go dead 3 times. Just whenever it decides to.

A few weeks ago, I ended up being stranded and had to be towed. Anti-freeze got into the oil. That ended up being the intake manifold. After that was replaced, along with an oil/filter change, the car is still having the going dead problem. So, evidently, that intake manifold was just a coincidence and totally unrelated.

The check engine light is NOT on. There are no codes.

My husband replaced the fuel pump and fuel filter and it is still having the same problem.

We know that now it must be in the electronic system...some sort of sensor or relay or module, but have no idea which one since the check engine light isn't on.

Where do we start? We're thinking maybe to start with the fuel pump relay, but don't even know where it is located. We see the fuses and relays under the hood, but don't know what relay controls what.

Also, we hate to replace that if that's not going to fix it. How can we figure out what it is without spending a fortune on all those sensors, relays, modules or whatever?

Any help is greatly appreciated!!!

Also, any help finding wiring diagrams and such for this would be a big help.

Id suggest to check all the grounds for loosness or corrosion. there are some on the engine some on the body plus the battery ground. Find them all and clean good and retighten them. This is at least free to do if you can do it yourself. Next is the ICM module sometimes they get weak and when it heats up can stop working until it cools.One other thing to check would be the fpr by taking the vac line off while key is on and or running and watch to see if fuel comes out of it. If it does it is bad.Hope this gives you some direction to start with and good luck.

Thanks so much for your reply. I will definitely check all the grounds for corrosion or if they're loose before anything.

Now that you mention it, we have had a car before that was having similar symptoms (just go dead for no apparent reason) and I do believe it ended up being the ignition control module.

Is that something that AutoZone and/or my husband can check? But, is it something that could be going bad but not show that it is (for instance, sometimes it will run for an hour or more without going dead, but other times a few minutes).

If need be, we'll also check the fuel pressure regulator if the above doesn't solve the problem.

Now, some other people have told my husband that it could possibly be the crank shaft sensor or cam shaft sensor or electronic control module, among a few other things. Is that possible too? Is the above (ICM module or FPR) more likely the culprit than any of those?

Also, where can I find wiring diagram to know where these things are?

thanks!

Yes those others could be the culprit but should also turn the cel light on and thro a code.
If it is the ecm it ma not thr a code for it. Try going to autozone.com and look for a wiring diagram in the repair section you may get luckey otherwise just go buy a manual. Some manuals will have your basic diagrams in them and will tell the location of parts as well.
I dont think autozone can check the icm's so thats kind of a touch and go subject and they are very expensive also. Good luck and keep us informed to your progress.

Since there are no codes I would kind of suspect the ECM. Definitely clean all the grounds you can find. The ICM is commonly replaced just to rule it out since they aren't that expensive.

I assume that you have no spark when trying to start after a stall, if so, you should take the ignition control module to AutoZone, or Advanced and have it tested. Have them run it through several cycles to simulate engine heat. If that checks ok, you may have to replace the crank position sensor. Both can be heat sensitive. The cam sensor will not cause this engine to stall! BTW, you can check the fuel pressure to eliminate the FPR.

HotZ28 said:

I assume that you have no spark when trying to start after a stall, if so, you should take the ignition control module to AutoZone, or Advanced and have it tested. Have them run it through several cycles to simulate engine heat. If that checks ok, you may have to replace the crank position sensor. Both can be heat sensitive. The cam sensor will not cause this engine to stall! BTW, you can check the fuel pressure to eliminate the FPR.

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Thanks so much for the images!!! They will be a big help!!!!

I have no idea if it has no spark when trying to start after a stall. The way the crazy thing is, I wouldn't have time to check because then it would crank again. I mean, I can sit there and try to crank it a few times and it won't. Then, when I feel like giving up and ready to call my hubby, I'll try one more time and it will. ETA: When hubby replaced the intake a few weeks ago, he also replaced the spark plugs because one of them appeared wet (maybe from the intake issue?). He had previously changed the plugs and wires about a year or so ago.

My hubby is out of town right now with one of the crews that went to help about the hurricane, but as soon as he gets back, we will get out there and try to figure out what's wrong with the car.

This morning, I took my son to school about 3 miles up the road (along with a lot of idling in the other school traffic, though). It never went dead. I parked, walked him to where he needs to go, came back to the car. It wouldn't crank. I had to try a few times.

Later today, I had a dentist appointment. I went a different way so that I wouldn't have to be in as much traffic with hardly no place to pull over in case it stalled. Well, after I went about 19 miles or so, I noticed ahead that there was road construction in the right lane up ahead. It had the cones and the arrows pointing to get into the left lane. Well, just as soon as I got into the left lane, guess what?! The car went dead. Ugh! I had to put on my flashers and motion for the cars behind me to go around (luckily there was still some room for them to get by me). After about the 4th try, it cranked and didn't go dead anymore.

After the dentist, I went to my mother-in-law's and she let me use her car at least until this weekend (when I'm hoping hubby will come home).

Oh, and about the FPR and fuel pressure. Again, this crazy car doesn't give us time to check hardly ever. See, when it stalls, sometimes it cranks right back up. Other times, it may take a few times. My hubby took around a fuel pressure gauge and a couple of times when it stalled, he put it on there and it showed the right pressure (and would also crank right back up). Then, finally when it stalled, he put it on there and it had no pressure. A few minutes later (with the gauge still on there), it had pressure again and would crank. That's when he replaced the fuel pump and filter. Before that, when trying to check the fuel pressure to see if it needed a fuel pump, it sat there over an hour idling with the fuel pressure gauge attached and never went dead and constantly had pressure. It's like the car won't give us time to diagnose the problem because then it corrects itself.

That's what I'm also worried about testing the ICM module too....I mean, I'm afraid that it will sit there and be tested for a long time and not fail even if it is bad.

Cadillac_AL said:

Since there are no codes I would kind of suspect the ECM. Definitely clean all the grounds you can find. The ICM is commonly replaced just to rule it out since they aren't that expensive.

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Yeah, we will definitely clean all the grounds as soon as hubby gets back, drive it awhile. Then, if it goes dead again, go ahead and replace the ICM whether it passes the test or not..just to rule it out. Then, if it still stalls, we'll have to start looking at the other possibilities.

Thank y'all so much for all of this help! I really appreciate it! This is a mind-boggling thing when you can't figure out what's going on. What happened to the good 'ol days when there wasn't all this electrical stuff...all these modules, sensors, relays, etc.? It sure was a lot easier then to figure out what was wrong with a vehicle.

Your Quote Oh, and about the FPR and fuel pressure. Again, this crazy car doesn't give us time to check hardly ever. See, when it stalls, sometimes it cranks right back up. Other times, it may take a few times. My hubby took around a fuel pressure gauge and a couple of times when it stalled, he put it on there and it showed the right pressure (and would also crank right back up). Then, finally when it stalled, he put it on there and it had no pressure. A few minutes later (with the gauge still on there), it had pressure again and would crank. That's when he replaced the fuel pump and filter. Before that, when trying to check the fuel pressure to see if it needed a fuel pump, it sat there over an hour idling with the fuel pressure gauge attached and never went dead and constantly had pressure.


Since he did a pressure test on it after the new pump and filter. Its starting to sound more than likely a bad ground. It could also be the crank sensor to.
The only thing is usually when the crank sensor starts going bad it wil turn the cel ligh on.
I had a 96 skylark have the same symptoms you are describing and the cel light came on and it was the bad crank sensor.What happened was were it bolts up one of the bolt holes was busted off not the bolt but the sensor itself. So it was still working but not at 100%. So replaced it and everything was good from there on. Well good luck and hope you and your hubby gets the problem solved.

You know, I don't think he's done a pressure test on it after the new pump and filter. Maybe something he needs to do?

But I'm hoping it is just a bad ground. That would be awesome!

All of this reading about all of this is very interesting to me. I'm so interested in learning all about this.

Here is my $.02 about my experience with a faulty crank sensor. I had a bad crank sensor on my 94 for about 2 years. The car would leave me stranded every so often. Luckily about 50% of the time I would be close to a bar so I could have a drink and curse the Buick for a while. After it sat a while it would start up like nothing was wrong. One thing about it though is it never ever died while I was driving it and when it was running there was no SES light. I finally got it scanned and the crank sensor code was there. the diagnostic system did it's job kinda. I hope they have the right equipment to check your codes. Every time I had to check mine it was a big ordeal because it was 94-95 and most places were too cheap to buy that scanner. If I were betting money on this and there were really no codes, then I would still bet on the ECM and that ICM could be a wildcard possibiliy. Keep us posted LadySmith when you finally get it fixed. Good luck.

What kind of scanner would I need to check the codes? I would like to get one. Does the check engine or SES light have to be on for it to show any codes?

I will keep y'all posted on any progress on my car. I certainly hope whatever it is, we can get it fixed soon.

I have been looking at this for a long time and plan on buying this one very very soon; it does 94-95 GM and everything else.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ACTR...023QQitemZ360084283459QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW

I had left my PA at my mother-in-law's house while I'm borrowing her car until my hubby gets back. Today while I was over there, I decided I'd crank my car since it's been sitting there about a week. Well, the battery was dead. I had to jump it off and let it run awhile. It sat there and ran and ran for about an hour and never went dead. I'm sure if I would have chanced it and tried to drive it home, it would have died on me on the way.

Anyway, how often should I crank the car while it's sitting to keep the battery from dying? Hopefully hubby will be home this weekend or early next week, but until then, how often should it be cranked?

Thanks!

OK, hubby is home, but he didn't get much time to check on my car because he was having to work on mother-in-law's car -- intake manifold like what happened to my car a few weeks ago.

While the car was sitting at my mother-in-law's, I decided to check on my car. Anyway, again...my battery had to be jumped off for it to crank
(was just jumped off and cranked a few days ago).

I got hubby to check the vacuum line to the FPR and there was no fuel in it. The car didn't run long....it went dead. Hubby said that the fuel pump (which was just replaced) is not pumping fuel. There was no fuel coming out. I turned the key off and on a couple of times while he listened for the fuel pump and after a few times, he heard it and said it would crank now. Well, it would have (according to hubby), only the battery was dead again. Evidently, it didn't get to charge long enough. But, I don't understand why the battery would have even been dead again this time because I just cranked it (after jumping it off) just the other day. Must need a new battery too.

I meant to ask....what would cause this fuel pump (that's new) not to pump sometimes? Is it a fuel problem somewhere or one of the electrical parts mentioned?

Tomorrow hopefully I can get hubby to help me check all the grounds. We don't even know where they are all located, but hopefully can figure it out.

He's about ready to just give up on this car and try to get another one. 🙁

You can buy new parts bad right out of the box. When you had the pump replaced did you have them put new filter on the pump itself? Id probably expect a bad connection at the pump connector or a bad/corroded ground. It may also still be a crank sensor causing your problem as well.

TDIXON said:

You can buy new parts bad right out of the box. When you had the pump replaced did you have them put new filter on the pump itself? Id probably expect a bad connection at the pump connector or a bad/corroded ground. It may also still be a crank sensor causing your problem as well.

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Hubby put the fuel pump on and he said he checked all the connections/wiring going to it. He also put a new filter.

Would a bad crank sensor cause the fuel pump not to pump sometimes? See, when it stalls, it's not getting fuel pressure. You can turn the key off and on a few times and hear the fuel pump and then the car will crank. But, if it's one of the times that it cranks right back up, then it is getting fuel pressure, of course. But, every time it won't crank, you can turn the switch on and off a few times, then hear the fuel pump and then it will crank.


Tonight we had the ignition control module tested. They ran it through 7 or 8 times and it passed, but when he handed it to me, it was not hardly warm at all..nothing like the engine heat. Should we have it tested again elsewhere?

Also, we've checked some of the grounds...and all seem fine. We even checked the ground busses that run in the driver and passenger door sills and those along the fender. We have not yet checked any of the wiring between the ICM, PCM and crank shaft position sensor (maybe tomorrow).

The dilemma we're dealing with right now about this is...since the ignition control module tested fine, we're thinking it's either the CKPS or the PCM or any of the wiring going to those, which we'll check tomorrow.

Well, the PCM cost way more than the CKPS, BUT the CKPS is a real pain to change out or so I've heard. The guy at the auto parts told us that if we get a PCM and it doesn't correct the problem that we can bring it back. So, even though it cost more, we're thinking about maybe going ahead and trying it instead of trying to tackle the CKPS right now. But first, we're going to check the wiring between those.

A guy tonight tried to tell us it could be the fuel pressure regulator (FPR), but I've been told here, I believe, that if it's bad, there would be fuel coming from the vac line to it, and there's not.

Also, somewhere I've read that a test for an oil pressure switch is that while the car is running, you could remove the fuel pump relay and if the engine dies that it's the oil pressure switch. Well, we did this and the engine did die. But, we also did the same thing on my mother-in-law's car (same 3800 engine -- Oldsmobile 88) and her engine died as well. So, I'm not sure about that test.

Ugh! This is driving me nuts!

Tomorrow we will check more wiring (including going to the fuel pump and the wires going between the CKPS, PCM, and ICM). If all checks out, we may buy a PCM and/or get the ICM tested elsewhere.

I will keep you all updated of the progress. I hate to read unfinished threads where the person never followed up with what the problem was or if they just gave up on it. I think the threads that has if the problem was resolved is most helpful.

You really should check for codes to at least give the diagnostic system a chance to do it's job. When my crank sensor went the SES light wasn't on but the code was there. If I were betting I would bet on the cam sensor and if there were really no codes after scanning it then I would bet on the PCM. It could all be battery related at this point. The battery needs to be charged and load tested. However................even with a new battery, I can't leave my Park Ave or my Caddy unattended for 3 weeks or the battery will be dead. It seems to be ok for a week or two though.

OK, got a new battery for starters. LOL

Hubby didn't have access to the scanner to check for codes because his friend that has it had to go out of town.

I thought I had read here that a cam sensor won't kill a running engine?

Today, we went ahead and put in a Fuel Pump Relay just to rule it out since it's cheap. We looked at a lot of wiring, but boy it's confusing when you're trying to trace where something's going and can't see it anymore. It's almost as if you'd have to pull the whole engine out to find out where it is.

I still haven't been able to find the PCM. We did check the wiring on the ICM as far as we could trace it without removing everything. We checked the ground busses and the wires behind the passenger side glove box.

Hubby used cleaner specifically made for these electrical parts even though he said that they all appeared to be clean and tightly connected.

He cleaned the battery terminals very very well.

He cranked the car and it died after 15 minutes of just sitting there idling.

He heard the fuel pump kick on and said that it would crank and it did. It sit there idling about 45 min or so until we just turned it off to go eat.

When we came back out there, he went under the rear passenger side tire to look at that wiring that goes to the fuel pump. He said everything looks nice and clean, but he cleaned them anyway and reconnected them.

Then, he decided to take a closer look at the FPR. Fuel does not come out of it when you pull that vac line off of it. So, he took it out and examine it. The little filter thing inside that thing was badly corroded. He cleaned that out and replaced it.

Well, he went ahead and cranked the car since it was getting late and we really wanted to get our car out of mother-in-law's yard if possible. It sit there and idled about 30 minutes or so. Hubby drove it home and I followed him in his truck. We got home and the car never stalled any. I got in the car and we took it for several miles. It was running beautifully.

I decided to get him to pull in a gas station and get gas. I wanted to know if this stalling sometimes might have something to do with stop-and-go...like out and about running errands...turning the engine off and then back on, etc.

We went miles and miles and the thing never died once.

Could the corroded fuel pressure regulator have had something to do with it? I mean, could it fail sometimes like when it's stopped up it thinks it has enough fuel and therefore the fuel pump doesn't get the signal to send more fuel?

Hubby wants me to drive around tomorrow as much as I can to see if it stalls. Believe me, I've already put the cash in my wallet for a tow truck in case it's needed...LOL

I'm just wondering if something he did with the connections back there at the fuel pump or this issue with the FPR might have possibly fixed it.

If this didn't do anything, why is there so much improvement? This problem has slowly been progressing. It started out that maybe once every few months, the car would die while coasting into the driveway or at red lights/stop signs...and then crank right back up.

Then, it just got worse and worse that maybe a couple of times a week it would go dead even while driving 65 mph. Sometimes it will start right back up and sometimes it takes turning the key off and on a few times and then the fuel pump will kick in and then it will crank.

Then, it just got worse...to the point that I couldn't make it 3 miles down the road without it at least going dead once if not more. I wasn't able to go anywhere on a daily basis with it without it dying on me.

I just wonder if whatever he did fixed it or if we're still going to back at square 1 of trying to figure out if it's the ICM or PCM (by the way, where is the PCM located on this car?).

Is there any way from what I described about it being dirty inside cause the intermittent stalling problem we've been having? Would anything to do with that cause there to be no fuel pressure there on the fuel rail and then turn the key on a couple of times, the fuel pump kicks on and then it will crank.?

Maybe tomorrow I can update if it stalled on me or not.

Well, it STILL isn't fixed. I don't know if the cooler weather last night (along with light misting rain) had anything to do with it not going dead.

But, today I just got back from driving the thing and thought I was going to have to end up getting towed home.

Whatever it is, seems to be progressively getting worse.

I made it about 13 minutes from the house going 65 mph (other cars zoom by at 75+) and the thing went dead. I had no power steering and trying to slow down enough to get off on the side of the road (which isn't paved...it's loose gravel). I put my flashers on and I turned the key on and off several times. I tried to crank several times and it wouldn't. I didn't have a fuel gauge on it, but from experience I know when it does that that the fuel pump isn't pumping. Turned the key on a few more times and then finally the fuel pump starts and the car will start.

Then, I started back home and got about 2 miles from my house and the thing quit again! Luckily this road wasn't as busy. I sat there turning the key off and on and finally after about 5 minutes the thing cranked up and I made it home.

I have to attempt it again after while when I go pick up my son from school. Ugh!!!

Of all these possible things it could be, what is the most likely culprit?

I'm literally going to be bald pretty soon!!