mitch_b
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- Location
- Washington, IN
- Buick Ownership
- 2012 LaCrosse Premium
First time posting, but I've tried compiling as much information as I possibly can for this post to hopefully not waste everyone's time.
Vehicle Year - 2012
Vehicle Model - LaCrosse
Vehicle Trim - Premium
Engine - 3.6L V6 (Flex Fuel option, but has never been used by me.)
Mileage - 118,978
TL;DR - I ran my 2012 LaCrosse Premium (3.6L V6) low-ish on oil, but mostly OLD oil (~22,000 mile oil change instead of < 3,000-5,000). Eventually changed timing chain and reassembled and now it can idle but cannot drive. As soon as it drives <1 mile, it's like it "tries to adjust timing" and it dies, won't turn over, and even blows the main fuse. Removing spark plugs and re-assembling allows crank and re-idle (after fuse replacement).
VERY Long version:
In August of 2024. For many specific reasons that I won't bore you with, such as life and who I am as a person, I neglected to care for my car and obviously ignored the "Oil Change Required" indicator more than once or twice. In late August, it was one of the first cooler nights/mornings, and I suspect the old oil wasn't flowing as freely as it had previously... So that morning as I was driving my kids to school, it died at a stop light. Just to note though... This car dying at a stop light was not entirely uncommon, because it's done this to me pretty "regularly" since I bought it used in 2016. I've looked into the error codes that it might have had at the time when that has happened in the past, and even monitored fuel-to-air ratios and other stats while driving for a LONG time. I had eventually come to the realization that the car gets "settled into" running at a certain RPM and speed for long trips on the highway, and adjusts the air-to-fuel ratio accordingly. Then after that long drive (at that setting) when I have to stop at a stop light on a highway, it struggles to adjust back to idle and dies. I have jokingly yelled the phrase "Stop trying to run efficiently, JUST RUN!" at the car more times than I can count (and not just because I can't count very high). It has even happened a handful of times after filling up with gas, because I suspect a similar issue was happening. It was trying to run/start using that previous efficiency setting, or maybe there was some fuel additives near the top of the tank when I used it, but regardless in that "lean mode" it couldn't handle it, sputtered when starting and died. After a few times of the engine turning over, it always eventually started.
So that morning when it died at that stoplight on the way to school, I blissfully assumed it was the same behavior. I pushed it to the side of the road, and secured someone else to take my kids to get to school while I looked at it. I tried turning it over a few times, but it eventually acted like the battery had died. Someone was nice enough to stop and give me a jump, and it started one time but sounded pretty rough. Never got it to start again after that, so I got a ride around town to go to the auto parts store and then replaced the battery. Then tried driving it down the highway a few hundred feet to get out from the flow of traffic, and it died while driving it. At least it died in a better spot, because there was a little pull-off with a parking lot.
It was at this point that I realized it probably wasn't the battery (at least not causing it to die while running/driving), nor is it the same ol "oh I'm trying to save you fuel because I know better" behavior that I've fought in the past. So I ended up troubleshooting it most of the day, topped off the oil since I found it was just barely low (but now known to be very old), and couldn't even get it to turn over at that point. For reference... I wrote the last mileage on the oil filter when I changed it last, and the mileage written on there was ~97k... The care is now at ~119K... So sadly that very old oil is actually ~22k miles old... Not just "a little old"...
After troubleshooting most of the day, I was stumped until about 7pm that evening when, luckily, my father was there troubleshooting it with me and suggested we check some fuses, including the main fuse that sits atop the battery. Eventually we determined that main 300A fuse had been blown. (See this fuse that I've since bought replacements of on Amazon.) After searching local parts stores, couldn't find that exact fuse, so I used a standard 250A (single fuse) just to nurse it to my parents house. I nursed it ~5.5 miles to my parents house, checked some other fluids and even scanned for error codes but couldn't find anything damning. I don't recall the exact error codes, but I believe there was one or two about the camshaft position sensor/system, understandably. Mostly I was just concerned about what damage I had likely caused at this point... So with the temporary fuse in place, it would idle, but didn't sound "the best". After discussing my options with a mechanic and lifelong childhood friend, he warned that running it low on oil might have thrown a tooth on the timing chain and asked if they've ever been replaced. I knew they hadn't been replaced or even really looked at since I've owned the car, and knowing it was over 100k on miles, I figured that was my most likely culprit of things I'd messed up on the car.
After a few weeks of letting it sit outside at my parents house, I decided to nurse it to my house and just never stop so that it can't idle down again. (Basically a flawless plan because there is only a single stop sign, and a handful of lights.../s) But I was able to get someone to follow me in their vehicle, just in case the worst happened again, and I slowly drove it to my house ~8 miles away. I did encounter it dying one last time as I HAD to stop at a stop sign that's about 700ft away from my house, because it comes to a less-than-90-degree-tee and it's unsafe to try and perform a "stoptional" at that one. So while it definitely struggled while driving it there, and did die that one time, luckily it restarted somehow at said stop sigh, and I drove it the last few feet into my driveway/garage.
At this point, I had made up my mind and decided that even if it doesn't 100% fix the issues, the timing chains almost certainly need to be replaced. So I set out and did a bunch of research and eventually tackled that job. It took well over 3+ months and I thought I messed up beyond fixing at least a few times. BUT the one thing I am absolutely 99.273% certain of, is that I did the timing chains correctly and followed the procedure to the letter of the law. I can safely say this because I not only turned the crankshaft over by hand for more times than I can count just to be sure, but I had also re-done the timing chain procedure after not being 100% sure that my original attempt was exactly lined up with the timing marks. The final attempt ticked all the boxes of what the instructional videos stated, the Chilton's book stated, and what my mechanical intuition pointed me toward as well. (I eventually figured out why they have the timing chain locks/guides that you can use to ensure you have the engine in the correct phase when beginning and when changing steps... I also eventually figured out that the instructional video was more helpful than the Chilton's book, but it was very beneficial to have both on hand when doing that procedure.) While changing the timing chains, I took the time to clean up as much of the areas, passages, and solenoids before putting the timing chains on and sealing it all back up. NOTE: I did see some flakes of metal in the mesh around the OCV (Oil Control Variable Valve Timing VVT) Solenoid... I also saw a decent amount of glitter and "oil/glitter" mixture that had the consistency of oobleck, when cleaning around the timing cover area. I tried cleaning and clearing as much of it as I possibly could, but knew I had likely caused long-term damage by running it on the old oil as long as I had.
The one part of this process that I did not try touching or even messing with, was anything related to the VVT sprockets, nor the camshafts, at all. I assumed that was a-whole-nother can of worms... So then also considering how long it took me to complete just the timing chain replacement, I figured it was a safer bet to assume that the VVTs had not failed, but instead the timing chain and/or oil pressure used to adjust those had failed (because of me).
After eventually putting the car back together, I decided it was finally time to try running (and hopefully driving) it. I assumed I would need to change the oil again after possibly having any of the loose pieces moving around in the engine, and I planned on it being a very short test drive (1-2 miles). The first time I started the engine after having it all back together 100% had a "lurch" sound to it. I may be wrong, but I attributed that to the fact that I had completely removed all of the oil AND even cleaned out and had some cleaner drained down out through the oil drain plug. However, after I panicked and turned the motor off, I tried starting it again and it did idle successfully. I then decided to take it for a quick test drive, but let it idle in the driveway for at least 15-20 minutes prior to driving it around at all. I then eased it onto my closed-end road (~450 ft, so a short 900ft test drive) and eased it back toward my house to make sure it ran and drove "okay". All seemed "well enough", except there was a possible light "tick", but I couldn't quite be sure. It didn't feel like a tick, no shake, no other apparent signs of anything wrong, so I decided to be a bit braver and extend my test drive (still running from the same 15-20 minute warm up) and drive literally around the corner to a store, leave it running, and drive back home. The store is just under 1 mile from my house, so I decided to go for it! Again, I personally think the tick noise could be heard when driving and the RPMs were around 2k-3k, but I'm not entirely sure. I stopped at the store, bought an energy drink, and started my return trip home.
It's at this point in my painful adventure that I share with you why I have now decided that I'm 109.4% NOT a fan of that stop sign that's about 700ft away from my house... Yes it's that same bastard one that comes to a less-than-90-degree-tee, and is still unsafe to try and "stoptional" it, so I HAD to stop. And the car dies. And unfortunately for thehero villain of this story, the car DIES dies... Can't start it, as it won't even turn over. I have at least 1-3 cars pull up behind me, confused as to why I have my flashers on, and are confused about how to go around someone with a dead car... But after a few minutes I realize there's no help on the way and this villain is now going to get to push his car onto the highway, and into my neighborhood. (Not recommended, but I did it. A very nice couple pulled over on the highway and actually helped me push it the last couple hundred feet, actually. So thank you very much random kind strangers! I owe you one.)
So after the car is "safely" "parked" in the middle of my closed-ended road, right at the entrance off the highway... I realize I'm not going to be able to push it the remainder of the way home, (slight incline and I'm already basically dead at this point) and so I try troubleshooting it. It is here where I discovered that the main 300A fuse that sites atop the battery is blown again... And there's no way for me to start the car to even nurse it home. Call my sister and brother-in-law just to ask if one of them can drive my truck to help me tow it the 300-400 ft home and into my driveway, and they eventually get there and we tow it home. I leave it in the garage for months, swearing at it, and cursing myself for ever letting this happen.
Eventually, I replaced the main fuse atop the battery... I am sadly down to only 3 remaining... So hopefully I can fix this issue soon. I then eventually took the top end apart (intake, valve covers, spark plugs out, etc) again so that I could test compression. The reason I wanted to test compression, was because the engine almost seems like it's over-compressed, or something, when it gets to the state of not being able to crank and blows the main 300A fuse. Removing the spark plugs allows the engine to turn over easily and there's never any issue cranking in that state (no valve/piston contact... no other issues... etc). As far as the compression test results, all 6 cylinders were almost identical and have the following readings (the table below is based off of the engine orientation in the car, as if you're standing at the front bumper looking above it):
I have a leakdown tester, but haven't used it yet. I'm not convinced I need to use it for this engine yet, but if any of you recommend it, I can do so. I'm getting QUITE proficient at taking the top end off of this engine... I also should note that I thought I stripped out 2 of the holes when reattaching the valve cover, but LUCKILY for me... I just broke 2 bolts instead. 😮💨 Miraculously... Those did actually come out without a fight, and I've since replaced those. I then put the engine all back together, and have now started it.
The first time it turned over again after replacing the fuse and re-assembling the top-end, the lurch sound when it started was present again. I was surprised this time, because the test-drive oil is still in there, and yet to be replaced since it's ran less than 30 minutes total and less than 2 entire miles since it's been changed... BUT after that first lurch, the engine sputtered and had at LEAST a handful of misfires, because I accidentally spilled some coolant into the #2 cylinder... (BTW, whichever engineer designed that coolant connection that sits underneath the power steering reservoir, and has the line that pretty much has to run between the two PS reservoir lines is a JERK. That engineer can suck eggs for all I care. TERRIBLE design, IMO. And that connection sits considerably lower than the coolant tank itself, so that tip has coolant freely flowing out of it as soon as you take that line off... Like. Why?! Is everything okay with you at home, engineer? Why are you trying to punish all of us like that? I don't get it...) Anyway... After the few misfires... it eventually took off and idled fine. A handful of restarts and it still idles "okay". Not perfect, but okay.
I then ran my pretty-cheap diagnostic tool against the car, which is nothing fancy but is one of the ones you can get at any local parts store. There is only a single code, no matter the behavior or the engine (idles, dies, etc)... The single code is a
As of last night, it started and idled, but still only ever had that permanent code of
So I'm stumped!! I don't know what my next steps might need to be... I suspect the next likely issues could easily be any of the following:
I'm 100% open to suggestions and tips at this point. My gut says VVT or ECM related... I hate to even consider using any more of a "parts-canon" solution than I already have to try and fix this, but I'm willing to consider anything given enough evidence. I feel bad that I neglected this car to this point, but also I want to try to fix it if I can. I feel weirdly confident about almost any part of this car, except the transmission at this point... I thank you all in advance for reading that very long-winded saga, and also for any advice you may all have moving forward.
Mitch
Vehicle Year - 2012
Vehicle Model - LaCrosse
Vehicle Trim - Premium
Engine - 3.6L V6 (Flex Fuel option, but has never been used by me.)
Mileage - 118,978
TL;DR - I ran my 2012 LaCrosse Premium (3.6L V6) low-ish on oil, but mostly OLD oil (~22,000 mile oil change instead of < 3,000-5,000). Eventually changed timing chain and reassembled and now it can idle but cannot drive. As soon as it drives <1 mile, it's like it "tries to adjust timing" and it dies, won't turn over, and even blows the main fuse. Removing spark plugs and re-assembling allows crank and re-idle (after fuse replacement).
VERY Long version:
In August of 2024. For many specific reasons that I won't bore you with, such as life and who I am as a person, I neglected to care for my car and obviously ignored the "Oil Change Required" indicator more than once or twice. In late August, it was one of the first cooler nights/mornings, and I suspect the old oil wasn't flowing as freely as it had previously... So that morning as I was driving my kids to school, it died at a stop light. Just to note though... This car dying at a stop light was not entirely uncommon, because it's done this to me pretty "regularly" since I bought it used in 2016. I've looked into the error codes that it might have had at the time when that has happened in the past, and even monitored fuel-to-air ratios and other stats while driving for a LONG time. I had eventually come to the realization that the car gets "settled into" running at a certain RPM and speed for long trips on the highway, and adjusts the air-to-fuel ratio accordingly. Then after that long drive (at that setting) when I have to stop at a stop light on a highway, it struggles to adjust back to idle and dies. I have jokingly yelled the phrase "Stop trying to run efficiently, JUST RUN!" at the car more times than I can count (and not just because I can't count very high). It has even happened a handful of times after filling up with gas, because I suspect a similar issue was happening. It was trying to run/start using that previous efficiency setting, or maybe there was some fuel additives near the top of the tank when I used it, but regardless in that "lean mode" it couldn't handle it, sputtered when starting and died. After a few times of the engine turning over, it always eventually started.
So that morning when it died at that stoplight on the way to school, I blissfully assumed it was the same behavior. I pushed it to the side of the road, and secured someone else to take my kids to get to school while I looked at it. I tried turning it over a few times, but it eventually acted like the battery had died. Someone was nice enough to stop and give me a jump, and it started one time but sounded pretty rough. Never got it to start again after that, so I got a ride around town to go to the auto parts store and then replaced the battery. Then tried driving it down the highway a few hundred feet to get out from the flow of traffic, and it died while driving it. At least it died in a better spot, because there was a little pull-off with a parking lot.
It was at this point that I realized it probably wasn't the battery (at least not causing it to die while running/driving), nor is it the same ol "oh I'm trying to save you fuel because I know better" behavior that I've fought in the past. So I ended up troubleshooting it most of the day, topped off the oil since I found it was just barely low (but now known to be very old), and couldn't even get it to turn over at that point. For reference... I wrote the last mileage on the oil filter when I changed it last, and the mileage written on there was ~97k... The care is now at ~119K... So sadly that very old oil is actually ~22k miles old... Not just "a little old"...
After troubleshooting most of the day, I was stumped until about 7pm that evening when, luckily, my father was there troubleshooting it with me and suggested we check some fuses, including the main fuse that sits atop the battery. Eventually we determined that main 300A fuse had been blown. (See this fuse that I've since bought replacements of on Amazon.) After searching local parts stores, couldn't find that exact fuse, so I used a standard 250A (single fuse) just to nurse it to my parents house. I nursed it ~5.5 miles to my parents house, checked some other fluids and even scanned for error codes but couldn't find anything damning. I don't recall the exact error codes, but I believe there was one or two about the camshaft position sensor/system, understandably. Mostly I was just concerned about what damage I had likely caused at this point... So with the temporary fuse in place, it would idle, but didn't sound "the best". After discussing my options with a mechanic and lifelong childhood friend, he warned that running it low on oil might have thrown a tooth on the timing chain and asked if they've ever been replaced. I knew they hadn't been replaced or even really looked at since I've owned the car, and knowing it was over 100k on miles, I figured that was my most likely culprit of things I'd messed up on the car.
After a few weeks of letting it sit outside at my parents house, I decided to nurse it to my house and just never stop so that it can't idle down again. (Basically a flawless plan because there is only a single stop sign, and a handful of lights.../s) But I was able to get someone to follow me in their vehicle, just in case the worst happened again, and I slowly drove it to my house ~8 miles away. I did encounter it dying one last time as I HAD to stop at a stop sign that's about 700ft away from my house, because it comes to a less-than-90-degree-tee and it's unsafe to try and perform a "stoptional" at that one. So while it definitely struggled while driving it there, and did die that one time, luckily it restarted somehow at said stop sigh, and I drove it the last few feet into my driveway/garage.
At this point, I had made up my mind and decided that even if it doesn't 100% fix the issues, the timing chains almost certainly need to be replaced. So I set out and did a bunch of research and eventually tackled that job. It took well over 3+ months and I thought I messed up beyond fixing at least a few times. BUT the one thing I am absolutely 99.273% certain of, is that I did the timing chains correctly and followed the procedure to the letter of the law. I can safely say this because I not only turned the crankshaft over by hand for more times than I can count just to be sure, but I had also re-done the timing chain procedure after not being 100% sure that my original attempt was exactly lined up with the timing marks. The final attempt ticked all the boxes of what the instructional videos stated, the Chilton's book stated, and what my mechanical intuition pointed me toward as well. (I eventually figured out why they have the timing chain locks/guides that you can use to ensure you have the engine in the correct phase when beginning and when changing steps... I also eventually figured out that the instructional video was more helpful than the Chilton's book, but it was very beneficial to have both on hand when doing that procedure.) While changing the timing chains, I took the time to clean up as much of the areas, passages, and solenoids before putting the timing chains on and sealing it all back up. NOTE: I did see some flakes of metal in the mesh around the OCV (Oil Control Variable Valve Timing VVT) Solenoid... I also saw a decent amount of glitter and "oil/glitter" mixture that had the consistency of oobleck, when cleaning around the timing cover area. I tried cleaning and clearing as much of it as I possibly could, but knew I had likely caused long-term damage by running it on the old oil as long as I had.
The one part of this process that I did not try touching or even messing with, was anything related to the VVT sprockets, nor the camshafts, at all. I assumed that was a-whole-nother can of worms... So then also considering how long it took me to complete just the timing chain replacement, I figured it was a safer bet to assume that the VVTs had not failed, but instead the timing chain and/or oil pressure used to adjust those had failed (because of me).
After eventually putting the car back together, I decided it was finally time to try running (and hopefully driving) it. I assumed I would need to change the oil again after possibly having any of the loose pieces moving around in the engine, and I planned on it being a very short test drive (1-2 miles). The first time I started the engine after having it all back together 100% had a "lurch" sound to it. I may be wrong, but I attributed that to the fact that I had completely removed all of the oil AND even cleaned out and had some cleaner drained down out through the oil drain plug. However, after I panicked and turned the motor off, I tried starting it again and it did idle successfully. I then decided to take it for a quick test drive, but let it idle in the driveway for at least 15-20 minutes prior to driving it around at all. I then eased it onto my closed-end road (~450 ft, so a short 900ft test drive) and eased it back toward my house to make sure it ran and drove "okay". All seemed "well enough", except there was a possible light "tick", but I couldn't quite be sure. It didn't feel like a tick, no shake, no other apparent signs of anything wrong, so I decided to be a bit braver and extend my test drive (still running from the same 15-20 minute warm up) and drive literally around the corner to a store, leave it running, and drive back home. The store is just under 1 mile from my house, so I decided to go for it! Again, I personally think the tick noise could be heard when driving and the RPMs were around 2k-3k, but I'm not entirely sure. I stopped at the store, bought an energy drink, and started my return trip home.
It's at this point in my painful adventure that I share with you why I have now decided that I'm 109.4% NOT a fan of that stop sign that's about 700ft away from my house... Yes it's that same bastard one that comes to a less-than-90-degree-tee, and is still unsafe to try and "stoptional" it, so I HAD to stop. And the car dies. And unfortunately for the
So after the car is "safely" "parked" in the middle of my closed-ended road, right at the entrance off the highway... I realize I'm not going to be able to push it the remainder of the way home, (slight incline and I'm already basically dead at this point) and so I try troubleshooting it. It is here where I discovered that the main 300A fuse that sites atop the battery is blown again... And there's no way for me to start the car to even nurse it home. Call my sister and brother-in-law just to ask if one of them can drive my truck to help me tow it the 300-400 ft home and into my driveway, and they eventually get there and we tow it home. I leave it in the garage for months, swearing at it, and cursing myself for ever letting this happen.
Eventually, I replaced the main fuse atop the battery... I am sadly down to only 3 remaining... So hopefully I can fix this issue soon. I then eventually took the top end apart (intake, valve covers, spark plugs out, etc) again so that I could test compression. The reason I wanted to test compression, was because the engine almost seems like it's over-compressed, or something, when it gets to the state of not being able to crank and blows the main 300A fuse. Removing the spark plugs allows the engine to turn over easily and there's never any issue cranking in that state (no valve/piston contact... no other issues... etc). As far as the compression test results, all 6 cylinders were almost identical and have the following readings (the table below is based off of the engine orientation in the car, as if you're standing at the front bumper looking above it):
Cylinder 2:
| Cylinder 4:
| Cylinder 6:
|
Cylinder 1:
| Cylinder 3:
| Cylinder 5:
|
I have a leakdown tester, but haven't used it yet. I'm not convinced I need to use it for this engine yet, but if any of you recommend it, I can do so. I'm getting QUITE proficient at taking the top end off of this engine... I also should note that I thought I stripped out 2 of the holes when reattaching the valve cover, but LUCKILY for me... I just broke 2 bolts instead. 😮💨 Miraculously... Those did actually come out without a fight, and I've since replaced those. I then put the engine all back together, and have now started it.
The first time it turned over again after replacing the fuse and re-assembling the top-end, the lurch sound when it started was present again. I was surprised this time, because the test-drive oil is still in there, and yet to be replaced since it's ran less than 30 minutes total and less than 2 entire miles since it's been changed... BUT after that first lurch, the engine sputtered and had at LEAST a handful of misfires, because I accidentally spilled some coolant into the #2 cylinder... (BTW, whichever engineer designed that coolant connection that sits underneath the power steering reservoir, and has the line that pretty much has to run between the two PS reservoir lines is a JERK. That engineer can suck eggs for all I care. TERRIBLE design, IMO. And that connection sits considerably lower than the coolant tank itself, so that tip has coolant freely flowing out of it as soon as you take that line off... Like. Why?! Is everything okay with you at home, engineer? Why are you trying to punish all of us like that? I don't get it...) Anyway... After the few misfires... it eventually took off and idled fine. A handful of restarts and it still idles "okay". Not perfect, but okay.
I then ran my pretty-cheap diagnostic tool against the car, which is nothing fancy but is one of the ones you can get at any local parts store. There is only a single code, no matter the behavior or the engine (idles, dies, etc)... The single code is a
P0011 - Intake Camshaft Position System Performance. Which does seem to relate to the timing and camshaft issues, but doesn't seem to really point directly toward what the next possible issue is.As of last night, it started and idled, but still only ever had that permanent code of
P0011 - Intake Camshaft Position System Performance, never any more codes, and also never lets me clear that one. The car idled fine on its own for 3-5 minutes, and then promptly died without warning? No additional codes after that, no CEL (check engine light), and in fact there are no dashboard warning indicators at all. I haven't tried yet this morning, but that dying on it's own could be related to the misfire/coolant still clearing up, though I suppose it could be related to the book that I've typed above also... But I wanted to at least include the information, in case it's important.So I'm stumped!! I don't know what my next steps might need to be... I suspect the next likely issues could easily be any of the following:
- VVT Sprockets (more $$$)
- Camshafts (more $$$)
- Crankshaft somehow?! (oooooooof too much $$$$$)
- Computer/ECM related
- Oil passages/ports around the timing chain tensioners
I'm 100% open to suggestions and tips at this point. My gut says VVT or ECM related... I hate to even consider using any more of a "parts-canon" solution than I already have to try and fix this, but I'm willing to consider anything given enough evidence. I feel bad that I neglected this car to this point, but also I want to try to fix it if I can. I feel weirdly confident about almost any part of this car, except the transmission at this point... I thank you all in advance for reading that very long-winded saga, and also for any advice you may all have moving forward.
Mitch
