Intermittent cranking (click/starter) and RPM's fluctuation + trouble running on startups (only).

[TheBude]

2002 Buick Park Avenue (N/A). 140k miles. Parts recently replaced in the past two months
All of the park plugs
1- coil pack
Ignition Control Module
Catalytic convertor
Cleaned IAT, MAF (replaced 1 year ago), IAC valve
Checked starter with battery, jumper cables and screwdriver. Starter works well
Cleaned grounds at the transmission housing. All other grounds are tight and clean.

Once started the car seems to run fine other than slightly rougher idling than prior to this issue (post title) that began a few days ago

A year ago I had similar issue minus the battery click/starter not cranking. A new MAF sensor fixed the stalling after starting issue so. I don't think it's the MAF sensor. I don't like throwing parts on without testing. Google search leads me to the following items as possible suspects.

Crank position sensor
Camshaft position sensor
Powertrain control module (PCM)
Wiring harness break or other issue

All replies appreciated in advance.

 

[DrivenDaily]

Scan it for codes.

Load test the battery.

How many keys are on your keyring?

Do you have any IPC issues, such as lights flickering or gauges unresponsive at times?

Use either a VOM or a scanner that can see live data and watch the system voltage while cranking and immediately after starting, as well as any other PIDs you feel might provide some useful data.

 

[02LTD2.0]

What brand of MAF did you use?
What car is this pertaining to?

 

[TheBude]

Scan it for codes.

Load test the battery.

How many keys are on your keyring?

Do you have any IPC issues, such as lights flickering or gauges unresponsive at times?

Use either a VOM or a scanner that can see live data and watch the system voltage while cranking and immediately after starting, as well as any other PIDs you feel might provide some useful data.

No codes currently.
I don't like a lot of keys on a ring so there is FOB, car and house key only.
Flickering lights -Yes. More dash lights than normal during startup, but once running no unusual ones.
Load test - great thought! I haven't tried it yet
Live data - another great suggestion. It's currently sitting overnight at a mechanic's shop. He is going to replace the passenger side CV axle tomorrow that I discovered leaking earlier today. In my older age sometimes I opt to pay for these type of repairs even though I have done them myself many times prior. He charging $80 for labor which is very reasonable. I didn't tell him about the current issue. However, I am thinking about driving to his place early tomorrow morning to ask him to load test it and check live data. He may encounter the startup issues tomorrow before putting it on a rack.
Thanks.

 

[TheBude]

What brand of MAF did you use?
What car is this pertaining to?

MAF replaced a year ago is NGK (same manufacturer of NTK and Denso). This morning I disconnected the MAF sensor harness when idling and there was a noticeable change in RPM's. I assume that means it's working correctly.

Car listed in my opening thread. '02 Buick PA (naturally aspirated)

 

[02LTD2.0]

If you have a scanner you should check LIVE data. Fuel trims and MAF readings can be helpful in diagnosis of your issues. When you disconnected MAF did it seem to run better or worse?

 

[TheBude]

If you have a scanner you should check LIVE data. Fuel trims and MAF readings can be helpful in diagnosis of your issues. When you disconnected MAF did it seem to run better or worse?

It ran worse when disconnected. RPM's dropped. I will have the MAF and fuel trim data tomorrow. I left my OBD2 scanner in the car and I can go over those things with the mechanic. He likely has a more thorough scanner.

 

[TheBude]

The mechanic replaced the passenger side CV-axle and now no more crunching sound during turns. He had the car up on a lift and I showed him a small diameter ground wire that I repaired (soldered crimp ring) that bolts to the tranny housing along with thicker secondary ground wire. I cleaned both wire leads (crimp-ring connectors) along with their mounting point very well prior to tightening them down. He said it was a good repair and not an issue. He also said he thinks it's a grounding issue somewhere and the neither the PCM, camshaft sensor or crankshaft sensor would cause the titled issues.

I stopped by a parts store on my way home from his garage. Unfortunately, their battery, alternator and (on-car) starter tester is not working correctly. I have to work tonight (overnight) so I don't have time to bring it to another store. Tomorrow I intend to clean the battery terminal connections off even though they look clean and are well tightened. The previous owner installed adapters on the battery that convert the side mounts to top mounts. They look to be be solidly constructed and haven't caused any previous issues. I checked the battery's side mount bolts yesterday and they are tight. I also intend to use a voltmeter to test ground points with and without a load applied. Has anyone needed to replace a failed thick diameter ground wire on your Buick?

When I start my car to go to work I will check the MAF and Live data. Need to get some sleep before my shift.

 

[TheBude]

Live data video via Google Drive link.
Captured just after startup with car parked.

2002 Buick PA live data.MOV

drive.google.com

 

[HotZ28]

Live data video via Google Drive link.
Captured just after startup with car parked.

2002 Buick PA live data.MOV

drive.google.com

I may have missed it, but I don't see anything in that Vid that shows battery voltage? Is that scanner capable of doing that?

 

[TheBude]

I may have missed it, but I don't see anything in that Vid that shows battery voltage? Is that scanner capable of doing that?

I may have missed it, but I don't see anything in that Vid that shows battery voltage? Is that scanner capable of doing that?

I just performed a battery test with the scanner and it shows “Warning” only. No additional info.

 

[02LTD2.0]

How about LIVE data at idle and NOT at 2500rpm?
STFT
LTFT
MAF
Volts

 

[TheBude]

After work I stopped by an auto parts store. Testing showed alternator is working properly. Battery may need replacement. It is three years old and a 3 year warrantied battery. The reason that I haven't suspected the battery is that prior to removing the starter I trickle charged it (Viking charger) and the charger showed it's holding a charge. Plus when I start the car it will click once and the start up strong after that. Just has trouble idling unless I feather the gas pedal. I may replace the battery if I can buy one with a solid return policy.

I am starting to lean towards either a fuel filter (just purchased one online) or a failing/weak but not fully failed fuel pump for the idle issue soon after starting issue.

I will video more OBD-2 scanning at idle soon to include STFT,LTFT, MAF and Volts. Thanks for everyone's replies so far.

 

[TheBude]

From Google AI "Yes, a car battery can show a normal or even a good voltage reading (like 12.6V) but still have a weak starting amperage (low Cold Cranking Amps, or CCA). This can lead to a battery that can hold a charge but struggles to start the engine, especially in cold weather. This is often due to internal damage or sulfation within the battery, which increases internal resistance. "

Looks to be (and I hope that it is .. easy fix) my car's starting situation. Doesn't explain the idle just after startup issue though.

 

[TheBude]

obd2 at idle IMG_0784.MOV

 

[HotZ28]

From Google AI "Yes, a car battery can show a normal or even a good voltage reading (like 12.6V) but still have a weak starting amperage (low Cold Cranking Amps, or CCA). This can lead to a battery that can hold a charge but struggles to start the engine, especially in cold weather. This is often due to internal damage or sulfation within the battery, which increases internal resistance. "

Looks to be (and I hope that it is .. easy fix) my car's starting situation. Doesn't explain the idle just after startup issue though.

I have yet to see any LOAD TEST of the battery? You are going around in circles trying to justify the failing condition of a 3-yr old battery!

 

[TheBude]

I have yet to see any LOAD TEST of the battery? You are going around in circles trying to justify the failing condition of a 3-yr old battery!

I thought the parts store battery test would provide voltage and amperage numbers under load. However it it didn’t. Their scanner stated “Warning” like my scanner does. They couldn’t tell me for sure that the battery is the issue.

I’m going by Walmart to pick one up. Even if it fixes the starting issue the stalling immediately after startup will still be present. See anything out of the ordinary in the most recent video that I posted?

 

[TheBude]

2% Battery Health…Stellar! 😂 According to the Ancel battery scanner that arrived this morning. Internal resistance is high. Under 10 volts during cranking test. Scanner says to replace battery.

My wife’s car ‘07 Toyota Yaris has a one year warranty Walmart battery that I now 3 years old. It gives similar readings as my Buick except its health is 35%. It’s says to replace as well. Yet, everyday my wife’s car starts and runs without issue.

I work every Friday, Sat, Sun 7p-7a. Which leaves me little time (after sleeping) and energy to do anything on the weekends. Today I replaced the fuel filter and will picking up a new battery soon.

The battery adapter terminals at the side post connection were in need of a good cleaning. I cleaned them off well with a brass bristle brush and throttle body spray.
I intend to apply a thin coat of vasoline on them and the battery cable terminals when I install the new battery.

I can say that this is the first time that I’ve encountered a battery that will hold a charge but is worn out.

 

[TheBude]

New battery and fuel filter seems to have solved the two simultaneous issues my car was experiencing.

I feel a bit stupid about not isolating the battery issue before replacing the starter with a $30 used one. As I mentioned previously I cannot recall experiencing a battery that will hold a charge but not produce proper CCA’s.

This lead me to purchasing a good, inexpensive, easy to use battery tester to hopefully avoid this from happening again in the future. From a previous post I made concerning a clogged catalytic converter that I recently replaced. It was definitely clogged (checked with a flashlight and compressed air) and the engine is now running better than ever.

Thanks for all of the replies and help.