Should Buick rebrand as Vauxhall in America?

[ZoomZoom Diva]

I feel that Buick is one step down from Cadillac. Not ALL that long ago the Park Avenue was considered "the doctor's car". Well, maybe it WAS a long time ago - but Chevy, Pontiac or Oldsmobile never had that honor. "The banker's hot rod". Another one...

A step, but with some overlap. I remember my grandpa saying his boss (the owner of a construction firm) considered a Roadmaster to be every bit the car of a Cadillac. Never liked the change from the Electra to the Park Avenue... but I can see the rebirth of the brand as a full-size electric sedan. I really don't think there is a place for the Grand National in the lineup, instead a better-done Regal GS would be a better fit.

 

[KSDeputy]

NO. I love Buicks, my Dad always drove them. Now I drive my fourth one. I love my Encore. When it comes time for my wife's new car perhaps a Buick instead of a Malibu.

 

[Sal Collaziano]

VAG Motors (Very Avant Guard)

Nice one. 😛 But that sounds a little bit like Volkswagen's VAG (Volkswagen Aktiengesellschaft)...

Perfect to my point. I know this is going to break some automotive hearts, but all I really know about Mercedes and BMW is that --

1. They're German.
2. Pricey.
3. Status symbols
4. Younger people typically CANNOT buy them
5. Can't name ONE of either brand that has ever caught my eye, outside of the BMW Z3 James Bond drove in the 90s.

I've had friends/relatives drive me in these cars. Couldn't identify most of them 3 minutes later in a police line-up. Since I wouldn't be able to afford any of them I dismiss almost all luxury cars. Very few have an interesting enough design to actually catch the 'designer' in me. There were some years where I noticed some Audis as sexy cars. This perspective might help people understand how Buick got by me.

Young people these days are very fashion oriented in clothing and gadgets. Generation Apple DOES care VERY much about design. Especially where it and cool meet. Just putting a Mercedes emblem on something means zip to these kids. Remember -- they're debadging types.

I believe the market is WIDE OPEN for hyper stylish/very reliable/reasonably luxurious/reasonably affordable cars. A hip Buick, if you will.

In your 1-5 list, it's #3 that they care about. Otherwise, it doesn't sound like you're much of an automobile enthusiast. Cars don't mean the same thing to everyone. To some people, they're everything (the very essence of life). To some people, they're nothing but appliances. To others, they're something somewhere in between. I kind of wish I wasn't so into cars. What are some of the nicest designs you've seen over the years? I'd like to get an idea what you think looks great.

A step, but with some overlap. I remember my grandpa saying his boss (the owner of a construction firm) considered a Roadmaster to be every bit the car of a Cadillac. Never liked the change from the Electra to the Park Avenue... but I can see the rebirth of the brand as a full-size electric sedan. I really don't think there is a place for the Grand National in the lineup, instead a better-done Regal GS would be a better fit.

I have heard people say that some things about the Roadmaster were actually nicer or more luxurious than what was available in the Fleetwood. I believe it was something about the seats. However, there were several different grades of seats in the Fleetwood - so perhaps they had only sat in the lower grades. Either way, the Roadmaster was a very luxurious car and while I've never owned one - I could definitely see it being an equal car to the Fleetwood.

 

[The Pool Man]

Otherwise, it doesn't sound like you're much of an automobile enthusiast. Cars don't mean the same thing to everyone. To some people, they're everything (the very essence of life). To some people, they're nothing but appliances. To others, they're something somewhere in between.

I'm hearing this appliance slur floating around. That I buy 'toasters'. And I take tongue in cheek offense. 😉

I grew up in the 70s. Back then almost all adults had American cars. They were typically station wagons or long sedans. Boats. Very few had any style except some Cadillacs I was lucky enough to occasionally ride in. Most of these cars fell apart within years. In little ways or big ways. Simply junk.

Meanwhile tiny little foreign cars were emerging. Dinghees, if you will. As flimsy, but hey -- they were cheaper. Half a boat maybe means half the cost. So, in a way, you could replace them twice as fast for the same money as a boat.

Somewhere in the 80s I saw the tone change. These little 'bombers' weren't so cheesy anymore. While American cars still were. What this meant was smaller cars could be more reliable and efficient, a trick American cars were failing to pull off.

The reason why America was hesitant to make reliable small cars was margin. And it still is. Why sell a Chevy Orlando domestically? It would harm sales of the Chevy Traverse, GMC Acadia, and Buick Enclave sales. Why sell some $19,000 good enough MPV when GM can sleaze their way towards a similar vehicle in the high 20s? The question answers itself.

I just believe Americans don't have as much money as car makers like to think. And that gas prices make the situation further ridiculous.

On top of that is this notion of buying a ATS-V Cadillac that goes up to 189 miles an hour. They have to show this beautiful monster on race tracks. Why? It's illegal to drive half its speed anywhere in America.

So should people like me are be labeled un-enthusiasts who drive toasters? Perhaps. But isn't it fair to label people who are not like me delightfully delusional drivers?

If you can buy an $80,000 car... I bet you complain about your taxes being too high. Or perhaps you love that you can go to zero to sixty in 4 seconds... something you almost never need... since in almost all cases you're driving to endanger. What -- you delight in passing people on highway onramps?

And you show me a car enthusiast... and I'll show you someone who cares more about performance than mileage... while... simultaneously complaining about gas prices and screaming 'drill baby drill'! America's cake and eat it too mentality.

And so really I feel I don't feel I should have to explain why I like a smaller car that is reasonably priced that has style and gets decent mileage. To me that is a luxury enough car. If I could suddenly afford a $60,000 car... the first thing I'd do is look around and find a friend who could really use an Encore. (Base model, of course. That's what I drive.) 😛

So if I were to answer your simple (and innocent) question about which cars grab my eye, it's small but smart cars. I usually prefer concepts to delivered versions. I adored the 'cute' Trax Concept car --



-- and it's why I bought the Encore. To me American car buyers have been conned into 'bigger is better' and 'prowess'. Sometimes you need a GMC truck, but most people don't. But they've been tricked into thinking small is woosy.

I don't care. Every time I don't fall for that trick saves me around $10000 or more dollars. Here are two GM cars I drool over --



Yum. And --



And the killer VW they refuse to release --



I know some taller heavier Americans simply can't fit inside these cars. (And they certainly can't fit inside a Honda Fit, lol.) But most can, because they are designed with wider seats and higher headroom.

But I live in a condo complex. And my neighbors buy cars that barely fit in their garages. Some have to park outside in front of their garage door... making it difficult for others to drive by.

I'm like... why? You're smaller than I am. If you're all driving a Lexus for status then... you don't have status... since all of you drive Lexus like cars. Plus you're either taking out a crazy loan to drive that thing... or will lose a fortune at trade in time.

Maybe it's just me. I think a car that can deliver impressive horsepower while offering decent mileage is REAL performance. That requires hard work and engineering. Making a car that goes 189 miles per hour is sweet... but irrelevant.

 

[longislander]

PoolMan are you aware that Buick is the name of the founder of the company, David Buick?
My wife and I both LOVE her Encore, but it's not just size or perceived status that make a luxury car what it is. My 2014 Cadillac CTS, at almost double the price, offers significantly better acceleration, cornering ability, quietness, seat comfort, material quality, and luxury features (panoramic sunroof, HID headlights, etc.) to justify the higher cost.

 

[The Pool Man]

PoolMan are you aware that Buick is the name of the founder of the company, David Buick?

Now I am. Buick doesn't carry that Henry Ford prowess making the nameplate necessarily worth keeping. He sold his own company 109 years ago. If the name was changed now I don't see any damage to control. After all Buick is partly becoming Opel anyway.

My wife and I both LOVE her Encore, but it's not just size or perceived status that make a luxury car what it is. My 2014 Cadillac CTS, at almost double the price, offers significantly better acceleration, cornering ability, quietness, seat comfort, material quality, and luxury features (panoramic sunroof, HID headlights, etc.) to justify the higher cost.

I wasn't suggesting luxury cars lack nicer amenities. I was taking a poke at that specific Caddy for being WAY more car than most people need. 189 miles per hour top speed? Going to Pluto anytime soon? 🙂 That is -- if a Honda is an 'appliance', a Cadillac might be the other side of the spectrum -- an artisan refrigerator crafted from hand.

I also wouldn't compare an MicroSUV to a sedan in the sense of handling. But a sedan to a sedan. I'm sure there's a nice enough sedan at half the price of the Cadillac. And the person who bought that shouldn't necessarily be labeled a non-enthusiast. Maybe what enthuses them is saving the environment with a hybrid car, you know?

 

[KSDeputy]

Buicks have no style, that is BS. I vividly recall the evening Dad came home in his new fawn color Electra 225. It was a beautiful car. He traded every 3 years, but this one was so nice he sold it to my uncle. The next one, a 1963 tan color, was not near as captivating as that Electra 225. I even recall the 1953 Roadmaster that we went on vacation to CO in. I was 7, it flooded out on the suspension bridge over the Royal Gorge. Dad took me to the edge to look down as we waited for the car a few minutes. I have disliked high places ever since. We then got back in the car, it started and we went on our way.

 

[Foursoors]

My son had an '88 and then a '98 LeSabre. Trust me, they did not have style. They were what a high school and then military young man could afford used. I couldn't imagine anyone under 85 buying them new. That's the Buick image that the company is trying to shake, not the early 50s or 60s. But I think they have done so and the cars are beautiful now. The more people see and drive them they will come around. I did. This is my first GM car and I'm over 60. When I think new car I think Honda or Mazda. But this time they weren't making what I wanted. Buick was smart to get in front with the Encore and that's what they should keep doing.

 

[Sal Collaziano]

I'm hearing this appliance slur floating around. That I buy 'toasters'. And I take tongue in cheek offense. 😉

I don't like the word "appliance" when used to describe certain cars - but that seems to be the trend these days. I've slowly become used to it and when I talk about certain cars "online" - it seems appropriate since I "believe" most people relate. However, not everyone will...

I grew up in the 70s. Back then almost all adults had American cars. They were typically station wagons or long sedans. Boats. Very few had any style except some Cadillacs I was lucky enough to occasionally ride in. Most of these cars fell apart within years. In little ways or big ways. Simply junk.

Meanwhile tiny little foreign cars were emerging. Dinghees, if you will. As flimsy, but hey -- they were cheaper. Half a boat maybe means half the cost. So, in a way, you could replace them twice as fast for the same money as a boat.

Somewhere in the 80s I saw the tone change. These little 'bombers' weren't so cheesy anymore. While American cars still were. What this meant was smaller cars could be more reliable and efficient, a trick American cars were failing to pull off.

I remember these times... During the 80s and 90s I thought Mustangs, Camaros and Firebirds were the best you could buy but years later after I sat in all the 300ZXs, Toyota Supras and Acura Integras - I realized why those who preferred Japanese cars - did. The build quality was phenomenal and the interior experience - most of the experience - was just a different world. What a difference...

The reason why America was hesitant to make reliable small cars was margin. And it still is. Why sell a Chevy Orlando domestically? It would harm sales of the Chevy Traverse, GMC Acadia, and Buick Enclave sales. Why sell some $19,000 good enough MPV when GM can sleaze their way towards a similar vehicle in the high 20s? The question answers itself.

I just believe Americans don't have as much money as car makers like to think. And that gas prices make the situation further ridiculous.

On top of that is this notion of buying a ATS-V Cadillac that goes up to 189 miles an hour. They have to show this beautiful monster on race tracks. Why? It's illegal to drive half its speed anywhere in America.

A decent portion of people who buy cars like the ATS-V, CTS-V, E63 AMG, M5, etcetera - take their cars to track events. So that's something we should not forget to consider. At the same it's nice for these cars to be comfortable grocery-getters with good road manners. Some people like going to the track competing for the best 1/4 mile time. Others compete around a track. It's a lot of fun...

So should people like me are be labeled un-enthusiasts who drive toasters? Perhaps. But isn't it fair to label people who are not like me delightfully delusional drivers?

If you can buy an $80,000 car... I bet you complain about your taxes being too high. Or perhaps you love that you can go to zero to sixty in 4 seconds... something you almost never need... since in almost all cases you're driving to endanger. What -- you delight in passing people on highway onramps?

See above...

And you show me a car enthusiast... and I'll show you someone who cares more about performance than mileage... while... simultaneously complaining about gas prices and screaming 'drill baby drill'! America's cake and eat it too mentality.

And so really I feel I don't feel I should have to explain why I like a smaller car that is reasonably priced that has style and gets decent mileage. To me that is a luxury enough car. If I could suddenly afford a $60,000 car... the first thing I'd do is look around and find a friend who could really use an Encore. (Base model, of course. That's what I drive.) 😛

So if I were to answer your simple (and innocent) question about which cars grab my eye, it's small but smart cars. I usually prefer concepts to delivered versions. I adored the 'cute' Trax Concept car --

View attachment 7989

-- and it's why I bought the Encore. To me American car buyers have been conned into 'bigger is better' and 'prowess'. Sometimes you need a GMC truck, but most people don't. But they've been tricked into thinking small is woosy.

I don't care. Every time I don't fall for that trick saves me around $10000 or more dollars. Here are two GM cars I drool over --

View attachment 7990

Yum. And --

View attachment 7991

And the killer VW they refuse to release --

View attachment 7992

I know some taller heavier Americans simply can't fit inside these cars. (And they certainly can't fit inside a Honda Fit, lol.) But most can, because they are designed with wider seats and higher headroom.

But I live in a condo complex. And my neighbors buy cars that barely fit in their garages. Some have to park outside in front of their garage door... making it difficult for others to drive by.

I'm like... why? You're smaller than I am. If you're all driving a Lexus for status then... you don't have status... since all of you drive Lexus like cars. Plus you're either taking out a crazy loan to drive that thing... or will lose a fortune at trade in time.

Those Lexus drivers do get some added benefits even if everyone at the condo complex has one. When they're out driving - the tend to get more respect on the road than others. They also get discounts at various stores and restaurants - and free parking at various places - and amazing service IF and when they need to bring their vehicle in for maintenance. And don't think the thing about "more respect on the road" is imaginary. You may not give any more respect to the guy driving the $250,000.00 S65 AMG over the guy driving the Kia Forte but most people do. Especially young people who like to drive with an attitude and have no issue cutting off the old woman driving the minivan but certainly think twice about how the rich guy driving the mobster mobile might react.

Maybe it's just me. I think a car that can deliver impressive horsepower while offering decent mileage is REAL performance. That requires hard work and engineering. Making a car that goes 189 miles per hour is sweet... but irrelevant.

I think everyone has their own definition of "automobile enthusiast". I mean - think about it... You have the people who love "low riders" with tiny little 13" wheels. The "stance" people with 22" wheels. You have enthusiasts all about performance or all about appearance. Everyone's definition is different and there's not one specific type - right or wrong. In my eyes, I see you as someone who's not really all that into cars. However, the more I get to know you - the better I can see that this is not the case. You pictured some pretty interesting (and nice) cars in your post...

 

[CarbonBlackCXS]

The reason why America was hesitant to make reliable small cars was margin. And it still is. Why sell a Chevy Orlando domestically? It would harm sales of the Chevy Traverse, GMC Acadia, and Buick Enclave sales. Why sell some $19,000 good enough MPV when GM can sleaze their way towards a similar vehicle in the high 20s? The question answers itself.

I just believe Americans don't have as much money as car makers like to think. And that gas prices make the situation further ridiculous.

Of course margins are important. It costs millions just to tool up. Material build cost is only part of it. Why take a chance on a new small vehicle with slim margins when you are unsure if it will sell or not?

The Orando it was sold elsewhere along with the Traverse, Acadia, and Enclave but yet it failed to sell and is no longer in production while the rest are. So apparently your question did NOT answer itself.

If you think fuel prices are high in the US you need to travel abroad more often. Perhaps the solution to your perceived problem is for fuel prices to rise to European levels which is around $5.50 US gallon. After all, higher fuel costs should equate to higher sales of smaller more fuel efficient cars right? Are you willing to fork out twice as much on each fill up just so more Americans might buy smaller cars? The Orlando was sold in Canada where fuel prices are much higher than in the US but yet the inexpensive fuel efficient Orlando failed to sell. Why is that? Perhaps it's because people didn't want to buy it.

 

[TheAirman]

The idea will never fly.

When one of the largest car buying markets in the world love their Buick, and the company knows that, they'll never change the name. There's a whole market we as Americans are forgetting about.

http://www.businessinsider.com/why-chinese-buyers-love-buick-2013-4

 

[The Pool Man]

The idea will never fly.

When one of the largest car buying markets in the world love their Buick, and the company knows that, they'll never change the name. There's a whole market we as Americans are forgetting about.

http://www.businessinsider.com/why-chinese-buyers-love-buick-2013-4

I asked if Buick should rebrand in America. And also said this --

One weird thing is the 'Buick' sells in China. How weird would it be to lose Buick in America but keep it in China?

 

[The Pool Man]

In my eyes, I see you as someone who's not really all that into cars. However, the more I get to know you - the better I can see that this is not the case. You pictured some pretty interesting (and nice) cars in your post...

Thanks. I'm kinda the other side of the coin. Most enthusiasts roll their eyes at anything 'underpowered' or the least bit 'feminine'. I pretty much do the reverse and sigh at 'overpowered masculine' vehicles. Absolutely to each his own, but I'm still an enthusiast.

I typically like Asian imports that will NEVER make their way here. (To dream... the impossible dream...) 😎 Because they are small, cute, and efficient. For instance -- have you seen the Suzuki IM4?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pg4kipdDpWA

What's amazing is that two of the ones I listed above were GM cars. That never EVER used to happen.

You'll note I haven't listed a Toyota or a Honda. And I won't. That's not American pride. It's because their cars are bucking foring as hell. And I'm open minded enough to really like this --



-- and of course this --



-- though I have absolutely no need for either. So I gravitate towards small cars because I can afford them and save gas and keep things a tad greener, but it doesn't mean my eyes are closed. Again -- I can't pick most luxury cars out of lineups. They all look the same to me.

But that Terrain? Noticed. The backlights of the ELR Coupe (and that car in general)? Absolutely.

(ignore image attached right below)

 

[Sal Collaziano]

I never have seen the IM4 but it looks like a nice small CUV. I'm a car nut so I like all cars - big, small and in between. I love the ELR - if you ever sit inside you'll love it even more. It's very comfortable and cozy. The GMC I notice the most is the Acadia...

 

[The Pool Man]

I would have walked past the Acadia in the past as 'too big'. However, I have a friend who has three kids and a grandmom in home. This is the car I've finalized that he should get.

 

[Sal Collaziano]

I would have walked past the Acadia in the past as 'too big'. However, I have a friend who has three kids and a grandmom in home. This is the car I've finalized that he should get.

The GMC Acadia is very nice but don't forget the Buick Enclave. 🙂

 

[ZoomZoom Diva]

The only vehicle that was really considered a "toaster" was the original Scion xB. That said, the concept of car as an appliance is a relationship between the attitudes of a segment of the marketplace and the cars designed to be marketed to them. There are people who want little or nothing more than comfortable transportation from point A to point B, and be disengaged from the process.

As already mentioned, there are many types of car enthusiasts. Some live by the 1/4 mile, others are into handling, others value various style elements over any driving or performance element. I even know some who are avid hypermilers who seek the maximum fuel efficiency from a given vehicle. One couple of enthusiast friends of mine are all about electric vehicles. Most enthusiasts I know seek a balance of appearance, performance types, and fuel efficiency in their cars, unless it is designed to be a track vehicle or showpiece car.

Just because one cannot use the absolute flat-out abilities of a car legally or safely on public roads does not mean those abilities cannot be enjoyed to a significant extent. Except for a very small portion of the market, even beyond the appliance-seeking types noted above, cars are not merely to satisfy needs, but to deliver on the wants of the owner. There are plenty of opportunities to launch a car 0-60 (or even higher if the speed limit is such) aggressively without having to pass people on on ramps. Plenty of opportunities to enjoy handling abilities within safe parameters on roadways.

Why does a person have to drive a Prius or make the minimum wage to be able to complain about the price of gasoline or the tax rate? Just because a person makes choices to make their gasoline bills or marginal tax rates higher than they absolutely have to be does not mean one forfeits one's right to an opinion about them.

 

[ZoomZoom Diva]

Perhaps it is the slant of a my type of enthusiasm, but I consider a certain modicum of horsepower and acceleration ability to be safety features for a vehicle, particularly with our relatively high speed roadways with short access points. Perhaps a 0 - 60 of 4 seconds is not needed, but I think a 0-60 of better than 10 seconds is beneficial to the basic safety and driveability of the car. My first car was slower than that and I felt it was not safe accelerating to freeway speeds. While I like the looks of the Suzuki from the photos, I question the driveability and flexability of a 1.0 litre, even one that is DI turbo.

I see the Acadia and the Enclave as very complementary offerings in a class, even though the Enclave and the Denali luxury trim are similar in price, the style and the feel of the two vehicles are very different. The Terrain is a nice vehicle, but I find the proportions awkward, like it was a larger vehicle chopped down.

 

[stoopid]

Holy crap ZZD, all good stuff.

 

[The Pool Man]

Just because one cannot use the absolute flat-out abilities of a car legally or safely on public roads does not mean those abilities cannot be enjoyed to a significant extent.

I get that handling is handling -- and if a mountain road is on your daily commute you might want a car with better handling.

Still, just the other day, I was approaching an onramp in my neighborhood. I looked behind me and there was no one there. I got on the OnRamp and began to accelerate and suddenly I had a Mercedes tailgaiting me. The car's body language was all 'C'mon, C'mon -- get out of my way!". I wasn't going slow.

What was going on was that single lane onramp is one of his few joys of driving said 'handling' car. He gets to take off like a rocket up that ramp. So when I got on the highway, again, he's like GET OUT OF MY WAY behind me. You see he believes that since he can break the sound barrier I'm not allowed to merge onto the highway at reasonable speeds. So as I'm merging leftward towards faster lanes he's trapped behind me doing non-performance speeds. Which irritates him. Again -- I'm not driving slowly.

Seconds later Big Man finds his opening and floors it (driving to endanger) to cross all four lanes to the fast lane. In seconds. Of course at the moment he's going about 80 miles an hour, he slows down... and two minutes later I slowly pass him in the adjacent lane. Because he's stuck in a lane of speed demons and they've run out of space to speed.

It's an attitude thing.