1992 PA dragging front passenger/right side brake/caliper

[nixnix]

85K miles hasn't run in six yrs parked under a two sides open carport though owned this vehicle since mid '90s at around 20K miles. I've changed out the rear wheel cylinders, [drum brakes rear], the front disc pads along w/front calipers. I can go out now turn key on, push brake pedal, drop tranny to neutral and push the auto w/ease.

However, if I take off driving after a few uses of the brakes the right front wheel will start grabbing & almost lock up. There is nothing to return to normal save allowing the rotor to cool off. I can attempt to not use the brakes, drop into neutral at speed, and it will coast smooth and fine. Yet, within one-two miles of using the brakes the front right drags. Heats up, smokes and/or smells from the offending wheel well. I pull over allowing the rotor to cool a couple of times limping home.

Originally I replaced the rear wheel cylinders & front pads. Seemed to work for a short couple of miles lap. Then the right wheel was sticking so I replaced the caliper. Again a short lap in the hood seemed swell. On jack stands the left front seemed to have a slight drag, so I install a caliper on that side.

Same song 2nd verse right side. It appears that the right floating caliper is hanging/dragging. When cool I can jack the car and wheel rolls w/o impediment. Yet, within a mile after driving off I can feel the rotor interacting 30-40mph, ever so roughly, as if warped. Perhaps the constant heat from constant braking brings on this sensation. Originally I thought something loose in the front suspension because it seemed as if a bad shock bouncing. Might not be related as could be vibration from raggedy old tires.

Could this have anything to do w/ABS or traction control? The ABS light comes own, as others, when key is turned on and all lights, save change oil, turn off after start.

How might I disconnect ABS & Traction Control in order to eliminate their possibility of involvement?

One other caveat, originally this started w/right rear parking brake locked up shoving the brake shoe into the drum though not releasing. I backed off the star adjuster until cable was loose thinking w/a bit of use it wouldn't stick any more. I only used it a time or two and the parking brake functioned properly. I never baked up the car to set the automatic star adjuster. I noticed on one lap I slammed on the brakes and one tire skidded. I figure it was the right rear.

So, could the right rear drum brake adjustment being loose have an effect on the right front disc brake? I can apply PB & cannot move the auto, key on/neutral, and now release PB & push auto. The PB appears to be functional and working now w/o sticking. The red BRAKE! light comes on when applied w/key on & goes off when released. As well the ABS light comes on key on and then cycles off.

The possibilities I conjure up in me feeble mind are right inside brake pad separates from rose clip, not allowing the pad to recede w/caliper thus maintaining contact allowing rotor to heat up quickly.

The right side caliper binding on the pins also not retracting heating up rotor

Traction Control haywire sending signal to right front caliper to apply brake

I've no scenario for the Anti-lock brakes as they prevent the wheels from completely locking up under heavy braking.

I know when I parked the car it did not have an issue w/brakes. This has me somewhat bamboozled after changing wheel cylinders in back to address a small leak, pads in the front then a right front drag followed by a new right caliper. Then on a jack the left wheel seemed to drag, so I replaced the left caliper.

I'm kinda lost though thought if I could eliminate anti-lock brakes & Traction Control then I could determine if one or the other played a role in this dragging front right brake.

ETA: I've been w/o an auto for a month & need this on the road. Right now I'm at a point where I'm thinking about jacking up the front end, yanking the tires and watch the rotors turn looking for inspiration.

I drove in reverse slamming the brakes in attempt to adjust the rear drums. Seemed to have smoothed out the PB. At first the rear right wheel, that I had issues with earlier, would lock up on smooth concrete and squeal.

Then I drove 1/4 mile & back, check the coasting, 1/2mi & back, check that car coasts in neutral and another 1/2 mi and back. On the last I kicked it up to 45-50mph & as I was easing up to driveway I kicked it in neutral.

I had to put it back in drives as the right pad was stopping my slow process into the driveway. I park it and five minutes later I can push the auto in neutral.

I'm close, but not close enough ...

 

[2007LucerneCXL]

Didn't see where or how the brake bleeding was done or if the sequence for all four corners. On the front the first guess is the brake rubber hoses are shot and need replacement.

Here's what the system looks like, but the bypass or removal of the ABS is something that may be done after other options have been tried.

 

[LARRY70GS]

It's usually the brake hose. They deteriorate inside and collapse acting like check valve. When it starts to hang up, loosen the bleeder. If brake fluid shoots out under pressure, I'd replace the hose.

 

[nixnix]

Thanks for the diagram & response. Every corner has been bled. The front corners twice, once for pads & then a few days later for calipers.

Brake hoses were next on the list.

What if the inner pad on the right side was installed w/o the rose clip/cage that fits inside of the caliper? When the piston goes back it couldn't pull the pad in tow, however it would not be applying any pressure to the pad either.

Not that I'm discounting the brake hose.

 

[LARRY70GS]

Thanks for the diagram & response. Every corner has been bled. The front corners twice, once for pads & then a few days later for calipers.

Brake hoses were next on the list.

What if the inner pad on the right side was installed w/o the rose clip/cage that fits inside of the caliper? When the piston goes back it couldn't pull the pad in tow, however it would not be applying any pressure to the pad either.

Not that I'm discounting the brake hose.

That's just an anti rattle clip. Disc brakes are instant acting being the pads are always in slight contact with the rotor. The piston moves very little. They are not like drum brakes which operate with clearance between the shoe and drum.

The entire caliper is designed to slide as the pads wear. That's why it is important to use caliper grease on the slides/pins.

 

[nixnix]

Do new caliper pins need grease? Are these slides where the two ends of the pads rest on the caliper and move when brakes are applied?

 

[BuickGirlFromMars]

Part# 179-1266 - ACDelco
Part# 18022219 - GM
you should replace this just because cheap and easy

Anyway

yours looks like that right? ABS system that is.

After numerous braking events you say you this happens.
Does your pedal return to full height after braking?

Teves Mark IV. Standard non-ABS manual or pressure-bleeding methods can be used for this system. Unlike the Teves Mark II system, the accumulator of the Mark IV system must be depressurized before bleeding the rear brakes. The bleeding sequence varies for different years, makes, and models. Proper bleeding for these systems consists of first manually bleeding the base brakes, then bleeding the hydraulic control unit, and finally repeating a manual base brake bleeding sequence. Refer to manufacturers’ recommended brake-bleeding procedures for these systems.

The 92 park avenue has a procedure in a tech 1 or a tech 2 scan tool to do this automatically where you would do the manual bleeding first, then scan tool, then manual.

also, your pedal, is your pedal bent, is it binding, is the switches(both ) there and adjusted correctly? one of the switches is used to exclusively set where the system will go back to normal and when its at-ready. also, traction control in a 92 is going to be up to the speeds of 25mph if your speedo works and your car works normally above 25, you could look at electrical issues with the traction. You said you can cruise, albeit neutral, and thats something you couldnt do with a stuck brake truly as much as yours is.

also get that hose replaced(all of them)
if you want to disable traction you should pull the two maxi fuses under hood for pump and valve and then the 3-4 fuses iirc in the fuse block.

"The TRACS-system prevents the driving-wheels from spinning during acceleration. If a wheel starts spinning the wheel will be braked by the TRACS system using the hydraulic components of ABS and some TRACS-specific components. When the spinning wheel regains its correct speed the TRACS-system stops the braking" is another company who made some diagnostics equipment for teves mk iv and describing it
further they state
The hydraulic part of the system includes an electric pump, which provides high pressure brake-fluid for building up the pressure after the pressure reduction phase. When ABS is combined with TRACS an additional valve is included for this funktion.


You need to do some things
1) check if its electrical by pulling those fuses
2) regardless of what you get results wise, replace old hoses and check fluid condition and fix wiring if its the issue above
3) check the ground of ABS, the connectors, clean the contacts and reconnect ground and paint or something so it dont rust
4) Mechanically bleed your brake stuff, maybe make sure the 2nd reservoir is clean
5) electronically bleed the ABS
6) test

 

[BuickGirlFromMars]

Do new caliper pins need grease? Are these slides where the two ends of the pads rest on the caliper and move when brakes are applied?

They need brake lubricant if metal on metal and no rubber is used such as purple ceramic stuff from permatex but if you have rubber contact then it would be wise to use high temp silicone which they make, for brakes.

Backing plates on the pads if no rubber contact dont hurt to use the lubricant. the slides that are replaceable also could go for a dab. nothing should be on the piston of course

 

[nixnix]

Thanks again guys. Air check valve will be here Saturday. My pedal comes all the way up. Even though I've had this car for decades I know little about it. I do know where those fuses are I since I haven't replaced the cover they'll be a cinch to yank out along w/two in the cabin.

I do not know what mine looks like as far as ABS. Sez anti-lock on the dash. Would my Vin# reveal those various details?

Ordered the front brake hoses they should be here tomorrow.

 

[HotZ28]

RPO codes may revel what braking system you have, but that is not part of the VIN! Let us know how the hose replacement goes.

 

[BuickGirlFromMars]

Thanks again guys. Air check valve will be here Saturday. My pedal comes all the way up. Even though I've had this car for decades I know little about it. I do know where those fuses are I since I haven't replaced the cover they'll be a cinch to yank out along w/two in the cabin.

I do not know what mine looks like as far as ABS. Sez anti-lock on the dash. Would my Vin# reveal those various details?

Ordered the front brake hoses they should be here tomorrow.

if your car is a 92 and its has ABS and its not a lesabre(its a PA) its a teves mk 4 system

 

[LARRY70GS]

Do new caliper pins need grease? Are these slides where the two ends of the pads rest on the caliper and move when brakes are applied?

All disc brake calipers require lube when replacing pads. The caliper is designed to slide as the pads wear. Without lube, there is the potential for the caliper to bind resulting in uneven pad wear. The service manual will tell you where the lube needs to be applied.

 

[nixnix]

It's 24* outside now ever so roughly, so I'll pull the traction control fuses later on first. Quick/easy elimination plus It will probably be Sunday/Monday before I have all the parts I've ordered in hand ready to install. Temps will probably warm up as well.

I removed the cover, back by the firewall, checking them before I fired up the auto from sitting for years. I had a half a tank of gas that I added a bottle of FI cleaner w/3gl of E-free gas that it's running on now. Old petrol stinks to high heaven and I've whittled it down to 1/4 tank after peaking at close to 3/4.

I replaced all the vacuum lines and it idles around 1K. Perhaps the air check valve will bring that down a mite.

My ABS system sits under the air cleaner, front left engine bay, and looks like the picture posted. My vacuum booster is rusting on the front bottom & the master cylinder is leaking a bit as I note the tell-tale trail below it on the same booster. The brakes feel fine though a new booster & master cylinder will be needed sooner than later.

I'm sure the front right brake hose is the primary subject. Yet, whilst waiting for parts I'll muse a mite on the method operandi. If indeed it is a faulty hose why doesn't it fail right out of the chute?

I brake to shift out of park, I brake at the end of driveway to road. I drive 30-40mph and stop/start and then back up to speed I place in neutral and coasts w/o apparent hesitation or dragging.

I'm not disagreeing w/popular conclusion. I'm merely looking for other options that could also cause similar failure.

I usually putt around 35-40mph as the rear tires were manufactured in 2003 and tread separation knots are obvious enough betwixt the tread & whitewall. Those were the better two of the four tires when I changed out the front set maybe tens yrs ago.

Gas station replaced serpentine belt and had two 205/70R15 "trailer tires" MIC which look fine though the DOT date appears to be in letters instead of numbers. Also I know it's been over ten yrs and no telling how long that station had those tires or when the were manufactured. The serpentine belt was cracked though still functioned when I changed it a couple of days ago.

I changed out the alternator and serpentine belt a couple of days ago. Woopie, no more charging the battery I bought last month! The original game plan of starting the auto, replacing the alternator & driving two miles for tires has expanded.

EDIT:

"Teves Mark IV. Standard non-ABS manual or pressure-bleeding methods can be used for this system. Unlike the Teves Mark II system, the accumulator of the Mark IV system must be depressurized before bleeding the rear brakes. The bleeding sequence varies for different years, makes, and models. Proper bleeding for these systems consists of first manually bleeding the base brakes, then bleeding the hydraulic control unit, and finally repeating a manual base brake bleeding sequence. Refer to manufacturers’ recommended brake-bleeding procedures for these systems."

I have a young man, late 20's early 30's, doing all of the brake work as I assist. He bleeds I pump. [I changed the battery, alt & serp belt.] After replacing rear wheel cylinders, front pads & front calipers his conclusion to the right side dragging was, "It's something else". This adds to my frustration as he changes from "mechanic" to parts swapper.


This 1992 PA was manufactured 6/92 & does indeed have the Mark IV. [Thanks for the help!]

We only mechanically bled the rear brakes. I know nothing of bleeding the hydraulic control unit or depressurizing the control unit. Wouldn't know where to start.

ETA II: "The service manual will tell you where the lube needs to be applied."

What service manual? I'm flying by the seat of my pants.

 

[LARRY70GS]

I'm on a lot of car message boards. I see this kind of thing all the time. When you have a problem with a car, you should always check the basic simple things first. Instead, people go to the most unlikely cause. It's like a guy with an engine misfire immediately thinking he has a flat cam lobe before checking the spark plug, wire, cap, and rotor. The ABS/Traction Control is not the likely cause of your problem. It might be, but it is extremely unlikely.

 

[BuickGirlFromMars]

I'm on a lot of car message boards. I see this kind of thing all the time. When you have a problem with a car, you should always check the basic simple things first. Instead, people go to the most unlikely cause. It's like a guy with an engine misfire immediately thinking he has a flat cam lobe before checking the spark plug, wire, cap, and rotor. The ABS/Traction Control is not the likely cause of your problem. It might be, but it is extremely unlikely.

I specifically only stated the ABS stuff as a high likely hood because of the 1992 park avenues with a wheel speed sensor rubbed and/or picking up frequency from the power steering pulley and the 92 model year had no engine-power reduction in traction, only braking to the affected wheel, and that it was specifically pointed out by buick service as a condition to watch for.

the takeaway from my post wasnt to be complex, look at the botttom, I tell him to pull all the ABS fuses and 2 maxi fuses and instantly would isolate it being an electrical or abs worldy possibility

The next logical thing is to then check the hose ,which takes more work than what I said.


Both should be done in my opinion anyway

 

[2007LucerneCXL]

As your vehicle has sat for 6 years just consider everything is a suspect especially anything with fluid as like wine it can age poorly and turn into vinegar figuratively speaking. The tank should have been drained, but by pushing old fuel though the fuel system be prepared for possible other problems, fuel filter being top of the list.

On brakes if not using a manual or from the post having experience, it is time to put down the tools and understand what your vehicles brake system is and follow written procedures. Jumping around and guessing on what may be something that isn't wrong isn't a troubleshooting process and could create a problem.

 

[BuickGirlFromMars]

and entirely based on age,wear, time, buildup, a non failure of the ABS system but something like traction still engaging for whatever reason, the isolation valves may be stuck open or the other abs valves could be leaking and then abs pressure is being applied even when it shouddnt. but this isnt something he should go try and verify im just saying as far as old cars go.

You said "trailer tire" do your tires say P___ LT___ ST___ or T___ for the tire size?

here is a pre-2000 bias ply:

 

[LARRY70GS]

I specifically only stated the ABS stuff as a high likely hood because of the 1992 park avenues with a wheel speed sensor rubbed and/or picking up frequency from the power steering pulley and the 92 model year had no engine-power reduction in traction, only braking to the affected wheel, and that it was specifically pointed out by buick service as a condition to watch for.

the takeaway from my post wasnt to be complex, look at the botttom, I tell him to pull all the ABS fuses and 2 maxi fuses and instantly would isolate it being an electrical or abs worldy possibility

The next logical thing is to then check the hose ,which takes more work than what I said.


Both should be done in my opinion anyway

View attachment 35067View attachment 35068
and entirely based on age,wear, time, buildup, a non failure of the ABS system but something like traction still engaging for whatever reason, the isolation valves may be stuck open or the other abs valves could be leaking and then abs pressure is being applied even when it shouddnt. but this isnt something he should go try and verify im just saying as far as old cars go.

You said "trailer tire" do your tires say P___ LT___ ST___ or T___ for the tire size?

here is a pre-2000 bias ply:
View attachment 35069

Again, eliminate the simple stuff first, then if no resolution, the less likely causes. The ABS/Traction Control motor is hard to miss in my car. It emits a very loud buzz when it is operating.

 

[nixnix]

I can appreciate that line of thought. The KISS treatment is oft dismissed in favour of a needle in a haystack or more "exotic" cause.

One side runny nose w/other congested, malaise, fatigue, mild to middling fever prompts some to agonize over potential Covid. W/o seeking professional medical assistance I speculated that I suffered a bout of the common cold.

It's why I purchased the front brake hoses. I have no particular reason to suspect ABS/Traction Control malfunction. However, a board specializing in the Buick brand would be apt to know of any idiosyncrasies concerning a common component as the Mark IV. The right wheel isn't spinning any faster than the left, so why would the Traction Control dampen the right wheel rotation? 'Aven't the foggiest mate.

Whilst advice to remain silent and thought a fool as opposed to opening mouth removing all doubt can be applicable many times I fear naught should the mood strike to leave no stone unturned.

I bumped into this on utube:

I'm sure this is olde hat for the tri-shield vets ...

 

[nixnix]

The guy at the station referred to using them as trailer tires. 205/70R15 96T Negotiator HP touring MIC. Not sure if the PA would exceed the 118mph rating. I might be able to use those on a lightweight 4-wheeler/lawnmower/motorcycle tilt trailer.

If so then indeed, if not previously, they could be knighted tyres of trailer.

ETA: Can I merely unplug the right front wheel speed sensor wire for a trial lap? It will throw a code I'm sure though since this is an early 1992 MK IV there would be no chance of retarding spark or limiting fuel as I understand.

Also, no DOT #. It has DOT WPRM ITA From before 2000 I guess.

"5) electronically bleed the ABS"
I wouldn't have a clue how much less where to begin.

ETA II: Yesterday I was ragged out. I snagged some good sleep. Perhaps the ole noggin is clearer as well.

I haven't addressed every post. My apologies. I'll try to catch up.

Yes the tank should've been drained, but I'd rather change out a FF than drop the tank. Speaking of, is there a baffle in that tank? I remember left hand turns around overpasses, w/foot in throttle, and engine sputtering at about 180*/almost end of turn starving for fuel. Are the Spectra or Dorman fuel tanks any good? I purchased a Delphi FP when I planned on dropped the tank earlier before it fired off bad petrol & all.

I'm sure I need a manual. How much are they?

" tech 1 or a tech 2 scan tool" -- Do I require one of these specific scan tools? I take it the newer scanners would not be of use or if they were the budget models would not work & I would need a specialized scanner. Can you ballpark me a price?

I didn't realize the complexity of the brake system. Just glancing I didn't notice the MK IV under the intake air. I have several items to replace, but I need to address the dragging front right wheel first. I need to make short 3mi trips to a tire store/grocery store/bank for the time being.