1996 LeSabre leaking coolant after multiple repairs

[wildirish]

Our LeSabre has been well-maintained, has 96k miles on it. It had a very slow leak, which didn't even show up on our driveway...until we had it "fixed". Here is what the mechanics have done:

* Removed/replaced upper and lower manifold gaskets

* Cleaned throttle body

* Cooling system flushed and backflushed (multiple times, because DexCool kept turning into sludge--it has been replaced with green antifreeze)

* Winterized

* O-rings replaced a month later, b/c 2nd mechanic said that the manifold was leaking again

* Flushed/backflushed once more because we weren't getting any heat again (this problem is finally resolved)

When the mechanic replaced the DexCool, he said he had to break/replace the rear oxygen sensor to drain the block. Everything was fine, until one very cold night (about ten below zero). Antifreeze started leaking, a large stream of it poured all over the garage floor.

The mechanic tested it--he said he had it up to 15 pounds of pressure for half an hour--and found no leaks. But that night, we had another river of antifreeze in the garage again.

So I looked at the engine myself as best I could. Here's what I found:

* Anti-freeze is dripping near the right front tire
* I see some coolant on the engine itself (see photo)

I circled the area where the coolant is visible. It's also on another, lower part of the engine, presumably dripping down from this area.

Anybody know what this is? The manifold gaskets leaking again? I'd like to have some idea of what's going on. I think the second mechanic is well-meaning, but can't seem to fix the problem. The first guy was a ripoff artist, I later learned.

I want to know beforehand what I should expect, because I'm going to yet another mechanic...but I don't want to get ripped off just because I'm a woman.

Any help would be appreciated.

PHOTO (link only, as this pic is HUGE):
http://oi39.tinypic.com/2m6u2s4.jpg

 

[gnhbodyguy]

Try a tube of Alumaseal. I've been running my 3800 engine for about five years with the Alumaseal in it. No drips, and no mechanics to deal with.

 

[journeyforce]

Looks to me like the coolant elbow above the waterpump went bad. This is a common issue with the series II 3800 engine. I never knew why GM decided plastic elbows would work instead of metal. Replace that one and the one on the other side and you should be good to go. That might be why you experience it with the car cold and not hot because the plastic expands to seal the leak

Here is a vid on how to do this on an Impala. Some things you might not need to do on the LeSabre but the 3800 Series II is the same in the the Impala, LeSabre Park Ave etc
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZX__c6HZuCQ[/ame]


Oh use only GM parts and not the dorman part as it leaks while cold also. If this was replace by your tech when the manifold gaskets were done then they might have used aftermarket and not GM parts

Good luck

 

[imidazol97]

The o-rings on the elbows often give trouble because they need to have the grooves cleaned really well for them and a silicone sealer needs to be used to lubricate sliding in the elbow and to seal.

Water will sometimes seep out because the system is under pressure and HOT after the car is shut off.

In another discussion someone stated that the replacement elbows from Dorman seem to be slightly undersized compared to the GM parts. Slightly undersized caused leaks.

The same can happen with the internal seal on the waterpump. You could be getting leaking through the weep hole on the inside of the pulley for the waterpump. The bearings probably would show some noise. Does the waterpump have noise or play when spun with the belt off?

 

[wildirish]

Before I respond to your posts, I have a question: Why wouldn't the mechanic be able to find the leak when using pressure, considering that the antifreeze drips constantly? Wouldn't the pressure have caused the leak to worsen? Or would the expansion of the seal (while the car is warm) be sufficient to withstand 15 lbs. of pressure?

Try a tube of Alumaseal. I've been running my 3800 engine for about five years with the Alumaseal in it. No drips, and no mechanics to deal with.

I've been very tempted to try something like that, but I've read that it could also mask a more serious problem. Is that true?

Looks to me like the coolant elbow above the waterpump went bad. This is a common issue with the series II 3800 engine. I never knew why GM decided plastic elbows would work instead of metal. Replace that one and the one on the other side and you should be good to go. That might be why you experience it with the car cold and not hot because the plastic expands to seal the leak.

And IIRC, DexCool eats away at plastic, adding to the problem of the plastic parts. *facepalm*

Here is a vid on how to do this on an Impala. Some things you might not need to do on the LeSabre but the 3800 Series II is the same in the the Impala, LeSabre Park Ave etc

Even though I can't do the repairs myself, the video does give me a better idea of what is going on with the car. Thanks.

Oh use only GM parts and not the dorman part as it leaks while cold also. If this was replace by your tech when the manifold gaskets were done then they might have used aftermarket and not GM parts.

But aren't the GM parts plastic? Won't I have the same problem again, or will that not be an issue since I have the green coolant in the car now?

The o-rings on the elbows often give trouble because they need to have the grooves cleaned really well for them and a silicone sealer needs to be used to lubricate sliding in the elbow and to seal.

We've had o-rings replaced two times recently, by two mechanics. The first replacement set failed, so another mechanic put a new set in. I don't know if these are the ones leaking again or not. Would the plastic elbows, themselves, crack after so much work being done to them during very cold weather?

Water will sometimes seep out because the system is under pressure and HOT after the car is shut off.

The car continues leaking, even when it's cold. I haven't driven it in 2 days, and it's still dripping quite a bit. Only the catch pan is preventing another river in the garage....

In another discussion someone stated that the replacement elbows from Dorman seem to be slightly undersized compared to the GM parts. Slightly undersized caused leaks.

OK, I'll be sure to ask the mechanic about the brand of parts he used.

The same can happen with the internal seal on the waterpump. You could be getting leaking through the weep hole on the inside of the pulley for the waterpump. The bearings probably would show some noise. Does the waterpump have noise or play when spun with the belt off?

Unfortunately, I can't answer your question, because I don't have the strength to take off belts, etc., after being injured a few years ago. But again, that's something I can ask the mechanic about when I talk to him this week.



Thanks for your input, and if you (or anyone else) can answer my follow-up questions, I'd appreciate it.

 

[journeyforce]

Drop your car off at your tech's the night before and have him pressure test the car while it is cold. I am thinking the car was driven to him so it was already warmed up. Heat would cause the elbows to expand enough to cause the leak to be plugged. Yes the GM elbows are also plastic but they are made to the correct specification. There is a post on this forum mentioning the Dorman elbows caused a leak just like you are having due to it being a slight bit smaller.

Usually most people replace the elbows and not just the o-ring. Of course the old o-ring might still be in the bore.

The leak looks like is coming from the area just under the elbow

Good luck

 

[Cadillac_AL]

If it's made of plastic it's made to break. This is a known problem to GM. When I replaced that cheap plastic elbow on my 94, the replacement from the dealer was made of metal. I wonder if they made a metal one to correct their mistake for the series II engine too?

 

[wildirish]

Drop your car off at your tech's the night before and have him pressure test the car while it is cold. I am thinking the car was driven to him so it was already warmed up. Heat would cause the elbows to expand enough to cause the leak to be plugged.
This is what the tech suggested, so I'll definitely do as you advise. I think, too, since I can show him where the antifreeze is dripping on the engine, that will also help him narrow it down.

Yes the GM elbows are also plastic but they are made to the correct specification. There is a post on this forum mentioning the Dorman elbows caused a leak just like you are having due to it being a slight bit smaller.

Maybe he used the Dorman elbows, which would explain a lot. We had a similar problem when replacing the cracked reservoir. He had ordered a reservoir that was supposed to fit this make/model, but it didn't--he had to order a genuine GM one, instead.

Usually most people replace the elbows and not just the o-ring. Of course the old o-ring might still be in the bore.

I know the second mechanic replaced 3 o-rings, as it says so on the receipt. I'm not sure what the first guy did, though.

The leak looks like is coming from the area just under the elbow.

Good luck

Thanks. I'll update this thread with the results, after I get the car looked at again.

 

[imidazol97]

And IIRC, DexCool eats away at plastic, adding to the problem of the plastic parts. *facepalm*.

Unless your 1996 has the original Dexcool in it, the DexCool is the same as the Prestone Mixes with All Colors. The original Dexcool used a different antioxidation chemical. That deteriorated too quickly for several postulated reasons. I checked the bottles of Prestone and found the same 4 chemicals listed on the back for both types of antifreeze. I checked the Material Safety sheets on the website and found minor differences, probably to add color, between the two. Some people studied the gasket materials of the original cars having problems and found the nylon 66 gasket materials were deteriorating and determined it was likely due to the new types of coolant. I doubt the original DexCool is causing your leaks now.

 

[wildirish]

If it's made of plastic it's made to break. This is a known problem to GM. When I replaced that cheap plastic elbow on my 94, the replacement from the dealer was made of metal. I wonder if they made a metal one to correct their mistake for the series II engine too?

I'll soon find out--my tech has ordered a genuine GM part to replace this elbow.

I doubt the original DexCool is causing your leaks now.

Sorry I didn't make myself clearer--I wasn't implying that it was. I don't have DexCool in our car anymore. I just meant that it was stupid for GM to use plastic parts, considering that DexCool tends to damage them.

Unless your 1996 has the original Dexcool in it, the DexCool is the same as the Prestone Mixes with All Colors. The original Dexcool used a different antioxidation chemical. That deteriorated too quickly for several postulated reasons. I checked the bottles of Prestone and found the same 4 chemicals listed on the back for both types of antifreeze. I checked the Material Safety sheets on the website and found minor differences, probably to add color, between the two. Some people studied the gasket materials of the original cars having problems and found the nylon 66 gasket materials were deteriorating and determined it was likely due to the new types of coolant.

I had gotten that Prestone antifreeze to have on hand for when I needed to top off the tank. But if it's more or less the same as the DexCool, I'm returning it. I want to use the green stuff, and nothing else. Thanks for the info.

 

[Enslow]

If you want to stay away from Dexcool and it's cousins (Prestone), get Zerex G-05. It's not the green stuff, but it has been used by Ford when they discovered their water pumps were being eaten away by Dexcool. I forget where I read that, but you should be good with Zerex G-05.

Don't be too quick to blame GM for their plastic stuff. As Imidizol said, some of us have had more trouble with Dorman plastic elbows than the original GM ones. I'm sure a properly installed GM elbow would last the lifetime of the of the car now. However, I would seriously consider replacing the LIM gasket with an aluminum framed one, and the UIM with the one sold through APN. It may cost a small fortune from a shop, but if done properly, would solve your cooling system problems for the life of the car.

 

[wildirish]

If you want to stay away from Dexcool and it's cousins (Prestone), get Zerex G-05. It's not the green stuff, but it has been used by Ford when they discovered their water pumps were being eaten away by Dexcool. I forget where I read that, but you should be good with Zerex G-05.

So DeathCool started devouring Fords, too? My mechanic already replaced the DexCool with regular green antifreeze, so I'd have to ask him about the Zerex G-05.

Don't be too quick to blame GM for their plastic stuff. As Imidizol said, some of us have had more trouble with Dorman plastic elbows than the original GM ones.

And I'm very grateful to Imidizol for bringing it up, as that's what caused the trouble in our car. It just seems kind of crazy to me that any car would have plastic parts, except for things like the washer fluid tank, etc. Considering the extreme heat and cold that cars are subjected to, you know?

I'm sure a properly installed GM elbow would last the lifetime of the of the car now.

I would think so, too...esp. now that there's no DexCool eating away at it. I've had good luck with GM parts in the past, when the aftermarket junk failed.

However, I would seriously consider replacing the LIM gasket with an aluminum framed one, and the UIM with the one sold through APN. It may cost a small fortune from a shop, but if done properly, would solve your cooling system problems for the life of the car.

I've already had those parts replaced, so I really can't afford that, I'm afraid. But if I have any problems with those parts again, I'll definitely bring up your suggestions to the mechanic.

UPDATE: Based on what you guys told me, I took the car back to the second mechanic and told him about the problem with the aftermarket part. He had indeed used a Dorman elbow, so he replaced it and the o-ring with genuine GM parts. So far, no leak--even after one night when it was six below zero, and last night when it was fifteen below zero.

Thanks for your help--the garage floor thanks you, too!

 

[imidazol97]

Thanks for your help--the garage floor thanks you, too!

One last note, you've seen several people here all with opinions and something to add. If you listen you can pick out a good solution for yourself.

For the record, I had my UIM changed on my 03 because of a very slow loss of coolant. Turned out it was the gasket on the throttle body. But after the replacement of everything, my mechanic put green coolant that's house labeled for a local auto parts store group. It's a Mixes with all types and colors coolant. But it's a dark green. I'm leaving it in two years and then I'll put in something I know what it is.

The important thing is keep changing your antifreeze at 2 years, whether it says 5 years/150 K miles or not. I did on the 03.

And put in the 2 or 3 coolant sealer tabs that GM recommends after your coolant change to seal any seeps.

On your coolant tube, I found mine would seep when I put 15 pounds on a cold motor and left it overnight checking for seeps on my new gaskets. I know he did a good job and sealed everything and let the sealer sit. That skill is why I had him do it instead of doing it myself--I bought the parts and paid him to put them on. He is very happy for the work whether he makes a percentage on the parts or not. And he deserves the pay he charged because he told me some of the things he knew to do on the job. I did not do those steps on my 98's UIM when I did it.

 

[wildirish]

The important thing is keep changing your antifreeze at 2 years, whether it says 5 years/150 K miles or not. I did on the 03.

Mere seconds before I read your post, I added an e-mail reminder at my Remindeo account, so I would be notified when it's time to get the antifreeze changed. I definitely want to keep things clean, after this mess we've had.

And put in the 2 or 3 coolant sealer tabs that GM recommends after your coolant change to seal any seeps.

I'll add that to the reminder--thanks.

On your coolant tube, I found mine would seep when I put 15 pounds on a cold motor and left it overnight checking for seeps on my new gaskets. I know he did a good job and sealed everything and let the sealer sit. That skill is why I had him do it instead of doing it myself--I bought the parts and paid him to put them on. He is very happy for the work whether he makes a percentage on the parts or not. And he deserves the pay he charged because he told me some of the things he knew to do on the job. I did not do those steps on my 98's UIM when I did it.

I think I have a pretty good mechanic now, too. It's rare to find them, but when you do, it's a godsend.

 

[ronmarlee]

Sounds like the same problem I am having on my 2003 Custom Lasabre. I am affraid to take it to a mechanic in fear of getting ripped off as well and would like to try to fix it myself. I would like to know what you find out. Thank you.

 

[imidazol97]

my 2003 Custom Lasabre.QUOTE]

You should start a new thread since your car is a far different year than the one here in this thread.

 

[Enslow]

I can't remember if it was this forum or another, but I posted pictures of my wife's nylon LIM gasket after approximately 100000km (60000mi). It was about to let go and dump coolant into the oil or cylinders. The nylon gasket had already split in several around the coolant ports. The scary thing is that as bad as the gasket was, it wasn't actually leaking. If i had left it, my wife could have been stranded.

My advice would be to save your money and change the gasket in about 50000 miles (or sooner).

BTW, as far as I know, Ford only tried the Dexcool on one vehicle for one year.

 

[wildirish]

Our car has been running great on the new green antifreeze...until the head gasket began leaking. I'm going to start a new thread about this, but I just wanted to post one last update on this thread I started.

Thanks to everyone for their input.