2013 Encore transmission drain and fill

[DocBrown]

Completely false. I do market analysis on all of a certain type of transmissions for a non-GM company. I recommend that people change their fluid every 30K miles if they want their transmission to live a long life. ATF properties do not stay the same throughout the life of the fluid. There are changes in viscosity and other properties as you accumulate miles on them. Along with that, the clutches inside the transmission are a wear item and will eventually contaminate the fluid.

Even if you stay within "normal" transmission temperatures, the fluid has a finite life. I admit that if you keep your fluid below 180F all the time that you can get long life out your fluid, but most people exceed that value, even with simple stop and go traffic. Also, most cars do not have ATF temperature gauges and even fewer people would actually look at it.

I guess you'd have to explain to me then all the 200k-300k mile sealed transmissions on GM cars that have never had the fluid changed. According to your market analysis these should have all failed. My HHR currently has 165k miles on it. I have no intention of changing the fluid.

 

[Again]

Completely false.

You sound like my wife. My 2004 Mitsubishi had 477000Kms on it when I rolled it. It had the original transmission fluid. A best before date is just that. Doesn't mean the oil is no good after the recommended date or mileage. You can do all the market analyzing you want. Like I said I check the oil for color, feel and smell once every couple of years. Usually always good under normal use.

 

[ThatsNotABuick!]

I guess you'd have to explain to me then all the 200k-300k mile sealed transmissions on GM cars that have never had the fluid changed. According to your market analysis these should have all failed. My HHR currently has 165k miles on it. I have no intention of changing the fluid.

Explain to me all the sealed transmissions that failed well before 300K miles and never had a fluid change. I am sure that number is greater than transmission that made it 300K without a fluid change.. Come back to this post if you can get 300K on it with original fluid. There will always be some anomalies that did close to 100% of driving on the highway. Ask any Jaguar owner who had "sealed for life" transmission about that. It was super common for those transmissions to go out around 100K miles.

For one of my personal vehicles (non-GM), it had about 100K miles and had all kinds of shifting problems. The fluid was still red and did not smell burnt. I drained it and filled it a few times and it shifts perfect.

 

[Zeroboostbuick]

Manual transmissions can last forever with out a fluid change. Automatic transmissions have little in common with manual gear boxes. I rebuilt 2 manual 5 speed transmissions and they're nothing like a automatic.

 

[DocBrown]

Explain to me all the sealed transmissions that failed well before 300K miles and never had a fluid change. I am sure that number is greater than transmission that made it 300K without a fluid change.. Come back to this post if you can get 300K on it with original fluid. There will always be some anomalies that did close to 100% of driving on the highway. Ask any Jaguar owner who had "sealed for life" transmission about that. It was super common for those transmissions to go out around 100K miles.

For one of my personal vehicles (non-GM), it had about 100K miles and had all kinds of shifting problems. The fluid was still red and did not smell burnt. I drained it and filled it a few times and it shifts perfect.

No worries. It'll be a while before I get that high of mileage, 10 more years probably, but you'd have to search pretty hard to find failures of the 4T45 transmission based on fluid issues. Even then, I'd be willing to bet they were beat on pretty hard. Most issues with these are electronics. And even those are not super common.

There was a time when frequent fluid changes were critical for all automatic transmissions. Many still are. I change the fluid in my truck's trans every 50k miles, as recommended by GM. Then again I tow a travel trailer with it. That's also not a sealed system. But the thinking that a normal duty cycle on a sealed transmission needs the fluid changed that regularly is like the thinking that oil changes are needed at 3k miles. It's out of date.

I'd be curious to know what the recommended maintenance interval on your non-GM is and what duty cycle you follow.

Manual transmissions can last forever with out a fluid change. Automatic transmissions have little in common with manual gear boxes. I rebuilt 2 manual 5 speed transmissions and they're nothing like a automatic.

You're not kidding. I have not rebuilt an automatic, but I have rebuilt the valve body on my old Trailblazer and put a shift kit in. There was nothing wrong with it persay, but we had gotten a bigger trailer and I wanted tighter shifting. The 4L60E transmission from that era was notorious for soft shifts.

 

[ThatsNotABuick!]

No worries. It'll be a while before I get that high of mileage, 10 more years probably, but you'd have to search pretty hard to find failures of the 4T45 transmission based on fluid issues. Even then, I'd be willing to bet they were beat on pretty hard. Most issues with these are electronics. And even those are not super common.

There was a time when frequent fluid changes were critical for all automatic transmissions. Many still are. I change the fluid in my truck's trans every 50k miles, as recommended by GM. Then again I tow a travel trailer with it. That's also not a sealed system. But the thinking that a normal duty cycle on a sealed transmission needs the fluid changed that regularly is like the thinking that oil changes are needed at 3k miles. It's out of date.

I'd be curious to know what the recommended maintenance interval on your non-GM is and what duty cycle you follow.

The 4T45 in your HHR is one of the rare examples of a transmission (for GM) that the capacity far exceeds the power of your engine. That transmission was designed for V6 engines. I have read that it is a very overbuilt transmission even for the high output turbo 4 cylinders. Not sure if you are turbo or not, but an under-stressed transmission will last longer than one right at the limit (4T65).

What do you consider a sealed system, if it has a drain plug, check plug and fill plug, then it is not a sealed system. In fact most transmissions I have seen have breather tubes, or else you would blow out the seals. You will always have clutch material, gear material and possibly flashing from the cases or other contamination floating around. Transmission fluid does need changing on some intervals. For example, we have a transmission dyno tester that measures lock-up efficiency of the torque converter. It should be at 100% when locked up. We had several transmissions failing for around 98% during a time period. We found out that the transmission fluid used for the transmissions was used over and over again and some of the properties had diminished. We flushed the system and put brand new ATF and all the missions were back to 100%. Would the average customer notice a 2% loss in efficiency.....nope, but you would have a reduction in fuel economy. (the transmissions were completely drained after testing and were refilled at the factory where they install it to the engine)

There was no recommended maintenance cycle for transmission fluid change for my car. The big push is for manufacturers is sell cars with longer maintenance intervals as an edge to the their competitor. They don't want they cars lasting 400K miles, so of course if the transmission can make it to the end of the power train warranty, that is good enough for them.

What the manufacturer recommends can bite them back. Look at BMW recently, they recommended 15K/2 year oil changes. After a ton of premature engine issues, they scaled it back to 10K/ 1 year oil changes.

 

[Again]

The 4T45 in your HHR is one of the rare examples of a transmission (for GM) that the capacity far exceeds the power of your engine. That transmission was designed for V6 engines. I have read that it is a very overbuilt transmission even for the high output turbo 4 cylinders. Not sure if you are turbo or not, but an under-stressed transmission will last longer than one right at the limit (4T65).

The 2.0l turbo ecotech was never coupled to an auto transmission until the Verano in 2012.

 

[DocBrown]

What the manufacturer recommends can bite them back. Look at BMW recently, they recommended 15K/2 year oil changes. After a ton of premature engine issues, they scaled it back to 10K/ 1 year oil changes.

So let me understand something. You have a car that is not a GM that started giving you trouble early on. You cite transmissions failing from other makes. Are you saying that GM makes durable transmissions and your employer and other manufacturers do not? And people complain about GM?

BTW, a sealed system is one in which there is no fill/dip stick tube and no drain plug (which annoyingly no GM I've ever owned had one).

In the 40 years I've owned cars, I've never had anything prematurely fail by following the manufacturer recommendations. Then again I've owned mostly GMs. What you keep bringing up about other manufacturers is making never want to buy a different make.

The 2.0l turbo ecotech was never coupled to an auto transmission until the Verano in 2012.

The 2008-2010 Chevy HHR SS 2.0l Turbo was available with an automatic transmission.

 

[Again]

The 2008-2010 Chevy HHR SS 2.0l Turbo was available with an automatic transmission.

Yes, you are right on that one, I forgot about that. Those were nice sleepers. They also made 10 canadian only 2010 4 door Cobalts for RCMP ghost cars cream in color that were turboed and automatic. Amherst Nova-Scotia had one. These aren't even listed on Wikipedia but I sat in it myself and I know for a fact they exist. They go like heck.

 

[DocBrown]

Yeah, those were really test beds for the 2.0 turbo. Very successful. Generally very reliable too.

 

[ThatsNotABuick!]

So let me understand something. You have a car that is not a GM that started giving you trouble early on. You cite transmissions failing from other makes. Are you saying that GM makes durable transmissions and your employer and other manufacturers do not? And people complain about GM?

BTW, a sealed system is one in which there is no fill/dip stick tube and no drain plug (which annoyingly no GM I've ever owned had one).

In the 40 years I've owned cars, I've never had anything prematurely fail by following the manufacturer recommendations. Then again I've owned mostly GMs. What you keep bringing up about other manufacturers is making never want to buy a different make.



The 2008-2010 Chevy HHR SS 2.0l Turbo was available with an automatic transmission.

Most manufacturers have problems with some of their transmissions in their line up. GM's CVTs, 4T65, and 4L60Es all have had issues well before 300K miles. GM does make some bulletproof transmissions like 4L80E.

As long as you have a way to add and remove transmission fluid, it is not really sealed. All manufacturers are going away from dipsticks due to cost and the average person doesn't know how to check the level and overfills the the transmission. This lead to overheating of the transmission. My dad's old Camry did not have a drain plug, and around 200K and the torque converter stopped locking up. Did a few drain and fills and it locked up fine. I ended up replacing the gasket on the last fill. The newer Toyotas have a drain plug.

Good for you having good luck with GM, there are many who don't. If you went by the manufacturer recommendation for oil changes by the OCI for the 2011 Buick Regal, you would have been on your third engine by now. The OCI said to change the oil after 12K miles. That is far too long and their have been a lot of timing chain/guide failures for that engine. The manufacturer is not always right with their recommendations. In later years, they revised the OCI, but it was still too long for that engine. My wife's GM car says to change the oil at around 7.5K. We leased the previous model and did the minimum oil changes. The engine was noisy and only go okay gas mileage. When we bought her current model (same exact engine/transmission), I change the oil myself every 5K miles. Not only is the engine much more quiet, but we also have seen an increase of 3-4 MPG. We won't even mention the Dexcool debacle!

 

[DocBrown]

For all those problems you cite, and I know they are out there, I personally don't really know anyone who's had serious issues with GMs unless they haven't maintained things. The internet certainly has a way of sensationalizing issues and making it seem like things are worse than they are.

BTW, 4L60Es got a lot better when GM came out with DEX VI fluid. I've had two now that were high mileage and pretty much bullet proof, my current Sierra (165k) being one of them. This indeed is a transmission that needs regular fluid changes but they will last a long time.

I'm not a fan of CVTs. I'm not convinced anyone is making a truly reliable one. Unfortunately I think they are here to stay.

 

[poncho167]

The late model Encore's have no service interval for regular driving. For severe driving conditions they recommend every 45,000 miles.

I too have never had a transmission issue with a GM other than notchie synchro's on a high mileage S10 5-speed. General Motors is famous world wide for transmission durability and have been used in a lot of vehicles including Rolls Royce, BMW, Jaguar, Lincoln, Rover, and more. Maybe the new generations are not as good having heard about some issues with the 8-speeds.

 

[Zeroboostbuick]

I think driving in the City is considered Severe. Stop and go stoplight to stoplight.

 

[ThatsNotABuick!]

The late model Encore's have no service interval for regular driving. For severe driving conditions they recommend every 45,000 miles.

I find it strange they suggest 45K for severe driving, but no service interval for regular driving. GM really should have a transmission life indicator to account for transmission temperatures. I believe they did have this in some Cadillacs, but it was based of mileage more than temperature. If you can keep you ATF below 180F, it can last over 100K miles, but most vehicles are designed to run hotter than that, especially since hot engine coolant is used to cool down the fluid for most vehicles.

 

[DocBrown]

Those are constant temps though in that chart. Trans temps fluctuate. Most vehicles will never reach a sustained 200 in daily driving. Towing a trailer up 6% grade for 10 miles will cause temps to rise to 220, even 230. But that doesn't hurt a thing. It also comes right back down. It's also why GM says change the fluid at 50k on my truck. Also my truck has a trans temp readout on it. At 60 miles an hour towing a 4500# box, my temps run at 170 or so. 190/195 in a stiff 20 mph wind or up a hill.

But you're not going to reach those temps in normal driving with a car. My truck runs 160 in daily driving. Maybe 170-180 in heavy stop/start commuter traffic. Use an OBDII Bluetooth reader with something like the Torque app and set the PID to read the trans temp. Let me know what you find in your day to day driving. I bet it's not what you think it's going to be.

Stop and go in stop lights with no real load in the vehicle and 15k miles a year, is normal driving. Towing a trailer, carrying a heavy load, lots of hills, dirt roads, becoming an Uber driver, those things are severe duty.

BTW, I'm not advocating towing anything with the Encore. It's not even rated to tow.

 

[ThatsNotABuick!]

Those are constant temps though in that chart. Trans temps fluctuate. Most vehicles will never reach a sustained 200 in daily driving. Towing a trailer up 6% grade for 10 miles will cause temps to rise to 220, even 230. But that doesn't hurt a thing. It also comes right back down. It's also why GM says change the fluid at 50k on my truck. Also my truck has a trans temp readout on it. At 60 miles an hour towing a 4500# box, my temps run at 170 or so. 190/195 in a stiff 20 mph wind or up a hill.

But you're not going to reach those temps in normal driving with a car. My truck runs 160 in daily driving. Maybe 170-180 in heavy stop/start commuter traffic. Use an OBDII Bluetooth reader with something like the Torque app and set the PID to read the trans temp. Let me know what you find in your day to day driving. I bet it's not what you think it's going to be.

IIRC, I was watching the trans temp on our 2015 Encore and it was 180-190 F going down the highway 65-70 MPH. I will pay attention in our new one once we get into some stop and go traffic (I usually try to avoid that if possible!)

We constantly monitor transmission temperature when testing cars at work. For us, we consider the beginning of normal operating temperature to be around 180F, but it does not take too much effort to get 212F with some stop and go driving. With some aggressive driving or a lot of hills, it can get up 248F. When testing in Death Valley, I got one our vehicles up to 290F without even towing. That was a bunch of back to back WOT runs though. The newer vehicles will give you a transmission temperature warning well before that temperature now. Also, the newer transmissions have better protection modes to prevent further increase of the temperature. It is not strictly based on sump temperature, but a bunch of calculated values also.

We did some benchmark testing with Dexron III many years ago. As you mentioned, the fluid temperature comes right back down. I actually use this in all of my older personal vehicles for fluids excellent heat rejection properties. Unfortunately the current fluid we use does not have the ability and once you get it hot it stays hot. You can thank the ever increasing effort for gas mileage for making substandard heat rejection abilities.

 

[DocBrown]

Switch your older vehicles to DEX VI. It runs a lot cooler. I noticed a marked difference in shifting performance on my old Trailblazer when I switched it to DEX VI. DEX VI is backward compatible with older vehicles that came with DEX III. In fact GM recommends it.

 

[Rcflyer2]

Man you guys sure complicate things . Drain the fluid. Measure what came out. Usually 4 to 4.5 quarts. Unscrew the fill cap on the top of transmission. Ad the same amount you took out. Put the cap back on. If it was extremely dirty repeat after one week.

 

[ThatsNotABuick!]

Man you guys sure complicate things . Drain the fluid. Measure what came out. Usually 4 to 4.5 quarts. Unscrew the fill cap on the top of transmission. Ad the same amount you took out. Put the cap back on. If it was extremely dirty repeat after one week.

That doesn't work if they were underfilled from the factory. I think I read somewhere that some vehicles were in that condition.