Multiple problems to fix on a 97 park ave

[90sbuickrescue]

Hello, I'm trying to figure out a few problems on a 97 park ave. I read through a few posts on this forum and decided to join after seeing what I would describe as a surprising amount of knowledge. I always figured buicks were cars that no one but mechanics worked on, (the opposite of a civic, where it is virtually impossible to find a stock one) but it seems that quite a few owners work on these too.

Anyway, the park avenue that I'm working on is a 97, non supercharged.
First thing is none of the interior lights work, and yesterday I tried to program a key fob (car did not come with one when I bought it from a tow yard) and that of course didn't work either. I checked the fuses under the hood, behind the glove box, and under the rear seat. There were 2 fuses blown in the under seat fuse box, #22, marked C/LTR, (15A) and #8, marked AUXOTLT (25A). Of course replacing those did absolutely nothing to solve this.

I suspect the body control module is at fault, I don't know what else to look at. I do not currently have any service manuals for this car. I also don't know if I buy another one on ebay, etc, what other problems I could be inviting. I know you have to reprogram key fobs of course, but what about the security, etc.

Next thing I would like to fix is the driver side wheel well motor mount. I cannot find that anywhere! Rockauto, partsgeek, etc, no one has it. I believe that mount is bad because the front and rear crossmember mounts have their cross bolts almost completely at the bottom of the rubber, with the rubber of course all torn apart. It looks to me like the motor/trans is held up/located front/back/side to side by the driver side wheel well mount and the passenger side wheel well mount (the one I had to mess with to a ridiculous degree just to replace the serpentine belt) with the front and rear crossmember mounts addressing powertrain torque under acceleration/deceleration. I could poly fill replacement front and rear crossmember mounts and use them to take all the load off the driver side wheel well mount, but that would be at the expense of more vibration transmitted into the car. However, it would still be better than what it is now.

There are multiple other things I would like to fix too, like the inoperative climate control/ac, front seats not going up/down, etc but for now I really just want to solve the lights/key fob, and figure out what to do with the motor mounts.

Thanks for any info!

 

[BuickGirlFromMars]

Hello, I'm trying to figure out a few problems on a 97 park ave. I read through a few posts on this forum and decided to join after seeing what I would describe as a surprising amount of knowledge. I always figured buicks were cars that no one but mechanics worked on, (the opposite of a civic, where it is virtually impossible to find a stock one) but it seems that quite a few owners work on these too.

Anyway, the park avenue that I'm working on is a 97, non supercharged.
First thing is none of the interior lights work, and yesterday I tried to program a key fob (car did not come with one when I bought it from a tow yard) and that of course didn't work either. I checked the fuses under the hood, behind the glove box, and under the rear seat. There were 2 fuses blown in the under seat fuse box, #22, marked C/LTR, (15A) and #8, marked AUXOTLT (25A). Of course replacing those did absolutely nothing to solve this.

I suspect the body control module is at fault, I don't know what else to look at. I do not currently have any service manuals for this car. I also don't know if I buy another one on ebay, etc, what other problems I could be inviting. I know you have to reprogram key fobs of course, but what about the security, etc.

Next thing I would like to fix is the driver side wheel well motor mount. I cannot find that anywhere! Rockauto, partsgeek, etc, no one has it. I believe that mount is bad because the front and rear crossmember mounts have their cross bolts almost completely at the bottom of the rubber, with the rubber of course all torn apart. It looks to me like the motor/trans is held up/located front/back/side to side by the driver side wheel well mount and the passenger side wheel well mount (the one I had to mess with to a ridiculous degree just to replace the serpentine belt) with the front and rear crossmember mounts addressing powertrain torque under acceleration/deceleration. I could poly fill replacement front and rear crossmember mounts and use them to take all the load off the driver side wheel well mount, but that would be at the expense of more vibration transmitted into the car. However, it would still be better than what it is now.

There are multiple other things I would like to fix too, like the inoperative climate control/ac, front seats not going up/down, etc but for now I really just want to solve the lights/key fob, and figure out what to do with the motor mounts.

Thanks for any info!

how many miles does your car have? how many owners? has this issue been present for a long time (to your available knowledge) and is there any other background that you can provide? have those fuses re-popped at all? Have you checked all 4 fuse boxes?
There are 2 under the hood, the BEC (Bussed Electrical Center) Has a screw that undoes the cap on the big one underhood, then there is a small MAXIFUSE block containing about 6 large MAXIFUSES next to it with a snap on cap. Then, there is the underseat fuse box you have already found. And then of course the ones under the kick panel behind the glove box. I say this because i want you to check them with a multimeter on continuity. Do not just visually test them. even a test light with the key on wouldnt be reliable since not all fuses will be powered key on.

Can you confirm you have done that or will do that?

The reason I ask is each and every fuse can look okay but be blown in very stealthy ways. A continuity check to each fuse will tell you if its good.

There are several TSBs for 1997 and 1998 buick park avenues dealing with bad interior lighting specifically related to production mistakes. Thats why Im curious about how many miles and owners, because its unlikely someone would have tolerated no interior lighting for 24 years lol. but the issues were relatively common and known to GM who would have fixed them under warranty. there is also the chance the issues popped up later than in most examples where they would have shown up earlier.

=====================
on your motor mount question, yes. I will post in my next reply info about that one.
I will provide information about all 4 mounts on your engine/transmission.

The fob issue we will address after your other electrical issues. (by chance, how did you attempt to program your fob?)

Do you have a scan tool by chance?

 

[BuickGirlFromMars]

this is what your 1997 Park Avenue has

I believe starting 1998 or 1999 , maybe even 2000 this mount was starting to be used:



your part youre looking for is #11 which is 22178776
That part, as you have found, is no longer produced. Dont mind that the picture of the engine is a L67 supercharged, the mounts are no different between the L67 and L32

the proper mount setup for your year, to replace them, is this:

The "FRT" mount on the subframe down by the radiator can be purchased in the original 1997 setup like on your car, but they are inferior. the bracket and mount pictured here are much better and last longer(albeit not that much longer). Its up to you if you want to upgrade or just replace.
The rear mount on the rear of the subframe(by your steering column) is hard to replace but here are both of them if you want.


The passenger side motor mount(Torque Axis Mount) is sold new and I have replaced mine, its a bit of a process but its doable. if you dont notice excessive vibration while accelerating you can put it off.

Bracket #10 and Mount #8 and the hardware sold that attach it should all that is needed. A junkyard 1999+ should have those parts if you want to get them off a car, but the bolts are still sold new and the bracket is found easily on ebay.
25740664

note that any 1999-2005 Buick Park Avenue, 2000-2005 Buick Lesabre, 2000-2005 Pontiac Bonneville(with a V6), 2001-2003 Oldsmobile Aurora(With a V6) should be found with this bracket on the transmission. its a bitch to get out on car because of the clearance for the large bolts. I had to use a ratcheting 18mm wrench(I believe) to get them mostly in and out

#7 on the new updated parts diagram and the #10 on the one matching your car are the same bolt 25643132, this is the one with the hook that locks in on the part (mine rounded replacing it so I had to pound a 14mm socket onto it, originally was 15mm I believe)	#34 and #6 are the same part number, 25643131, this is the bolt that holds the mount in the wheel well down onto the cars unibody frame rail from by the EBCM (Abs module) hidden behind connectors and wiring for the wheel speed sensors and ABS module. The bolt is "Staked" to the body by another bolt as to prevent it from turning so you can remove the nut without having to have someone hold it from the other side for you.
#9 is the same as #12 threads and use wise but the coating is different , apparently it was galvanized in 1997 but no longer was. Thats the nut for the bolt described above. 11516078	11509699 is the bolt mentioned above that stakes the other bolt to the frame rail. #33 and #36 on the diagrams
#11 and #9 of the diagrams describe 25816658 as the bolts that connect the bracket to the trans cover, so they are the same.	Lastly, my diagrams actually fail to show a nut for the new mount on the driver side wheel well in the visual and listed format... so if you get the new mount you should check your fasteners from your old mount, one of them would only be needed. The nut should be flanged and should be 9.8, 10.9, 12.9 if you have to go to a hardware store. Mine were from a hardware store because I ended up cutting the shaft of the mount because the nut was so seized to it and the mount was shot anyway so it just spun in place. If your bolts on your 1997 are flanged and have the same threads, they will most definitely work. keep the spare if you ever need it again.

=======================================================
So I gave you a lot of information here. If you want more info about upgrading that front trans mount, let me know, but to replace the very shot mount this is the information you need.

 

[Pirate Pete]

Hello, I'm trying to figure out a few problems on a 97 park ave. I read through a few posts on this forum and decided to join after seeing what I would describe as a surprising amount of knowledge. I always figured buicks were cars that no one but mechanics worked on, (the opposite of a civic, where it is virtually impossible to find a stock one) but it seems that quite a few owners work on these too.

Anyway, the park avenue that I'm working on is a 97, non supercharged.
First thing is none of the interior lights work, and yesterday I tried to program a key fob (car did not come with one when I bought it from a tow yard) and that of course didn't work either. I checked the fuses under the hood, behind the glove box, and under the rear seat. There were 2 fuses blown in the under seat fuse box, #22, marked C/LTR, (15A) and #8, marked AUXOTLT (25A). Of course replacing those did absolutely nothing to solve this.

I suspect the body control module is at fault, I don't know what else to look at. I do not currently have any service manuals for this car. I also don't know if I buy another one on ebay, etc, what other problems I could be inviting. I know you have to reprogram key fobs of course, but what about the security, etc.

Next thing I would like to fix is the driver side wheel well motor mount. I cannot find that anywhere! Rockauto, partsgeek, etc, no one has it. I believe that mount is bad because the front and rear crossmember mounts have their cross bolts almost completely at the bottom of the rubber, with the rubber of course all torn apart. It looks to me like the motor/trans is held up/located front/back/side to side by the driver side wheel well mount and the passenger side wheel well mount (the one I had to mess with to a ridiculous degree just to replace the serpentine belt) with the front and rear crossmember mounts addressing powertrain torque under acceleration/deceleration. I could poly fill replacement front and rear crossmember mounts and use them to take all the load off the driver side wheel well mount, but that would be at the expense of more vibration transmitted into the car. However, it would still be better than what it is now.

There are multiple other things I would like to fix too, like the inoperative climate control/ac, front seats not going up/down, etc but for now I really just want to solve the lights/key fob, and figure out what to do with the motor mounts.

Thanks for any info!

As far as your lights not coming on it sounds like you have a short, which caused fuses to blow . It's usually from wires bending over the years. Check inside your doors and truck where wires pass through a rubber grommet. Open the rubber to reveal the wires and look for broken wires.

As for the seats mine is in the same situation. eBay has brass sprockets to replace the plastic ones that are stripped causing the seats not to go up and down. You will have to remove your seats. I personally can't do this having severe degenerative disc disease. When I get some money I'll bring it to an auto reupholstered here in town . I don't use my car more than twice a week which is only a local 10 or 15 minute drive so it's not a dire urgency for me. Good luck 🤞

 

[90sbuickrescue]

Thanks Pirate Pete and especially thanks Buick girl from mars. Wow. That has to be the most in detail reply I've ever gotten on any forum automotive or otherwise.

That's pretty sweet if #8 and #10 in the second diagram will just bolt in. I was afraid I was going to have to do some fab work if I wanted to fix anything with these mounts. I can't tell from the diagrams if the updated front crossmember mount is a direct bolt in (due to the vertical stud which appears to go down through the crossmember). I also can't tell about the updated rear one, because if I remember correctly, the bracket that holds the mount insert (#3 in the first diagram) also holds the steering rack. I might just swap in #8 and 10 since I've already bought and poly filled replacement old style front and rear mounts. The poly is actually pretty soft, but if it vibrates annoyingly I might continue with the updated ones. Videos I watched appear to show the updated front mount failing in a way that allows really excessive powertrain movement. When the old style one fails, it doesn't increase the total movement of the powertrain, since the cross bolt is still trapped, it just decreases the amount of force it takes to create that movement, in other words it would move about the same amount just putting the car in gear as it would with the gas pedal floored from a stop. I can't tell for sure, but it appears that a failing updated front one allows more movement. ?

The background on the car is the previous owner abandoned it at a tow yard. I probably overpaid for it, $1500. I don't know how long it sat, but it sat with at least one of the windows down. Snow and rain did get inside the car. There is mold/mildew all over the carpet. There appears to be no corrosion on the floorpan though. The reason I decided to buy the car is it's almost impossible to find anything older anywhere near where I live in south dakota that hasn't been completely destroyed by the midwest road salt. This car only has 116k and underneath looks like it's from the south or CA. I spray everything underneath with synthetic gear oil with an airless sprayer and then drive on dirt roads, that completely stops rust. Undercoating does not work. And I constantly wash my vehicles in the winter. It boggles my mind how people will spend 100k on something like a new yukon and then drive it in salt without giving rust prevention a single thought.

Anyway, I think the reason the vehicle was abandoned is the oil pressure light was on, they likely assumed it was going to need major engine work, and that combined with all the other dumb stuff wrong with it was just too much. The engine was over full of oil (not enough for the crank to whip it into a foam though) and the pressure sensor was bad. It also had dexcool and whatever other type mixed, making a mess, already had the intake gaskets done, but the radiator was cracked, the belt tensioner was bad, alternator was bad, catalytic converter is breaking apart internally causing a code, (my 95 silverado did the same thing..it now has an inline pump 5.9 cummins, no converters on that!) climate control doesn't work, etc etc.

I didn't check the fuses for continuity, but my eyes have never failed me inspecting a fuse yet. When I replaced the 2 bad ones in the underseat box, I measured across the wires to see if they were pulling any power, they weren't. I also removed the body control module (just wanted to take a picture of the number on it to shop for another one) and reinstalled it. After that, I test started the car, no problem. However, a few hours later when I tried to start it, it was doing all kids of weird stuff, dash lights flashing, gauges jumping all around, door locks cycling on their own, and it killed the battery. Only cranked about half a turn. I thought it hydrolocked or it was the security system at first, I didn't know what to think. But that didn't make sense, so I disconnected the battery and clamped the wires together to get rid of residual voltage while I recharged the battery. I also pulled the 2 fuses I replaced back out, but they still weren't pulling power, at least at that time. After that it started back up. I drove the car over 4 hours yesterday, just felt like taking a gamble I guess, but it performed fine. Cruise control, interior lighting, key fob, etc still don't work.

Right now I'm going to go out and change the thermostat, oil and filter. Cruising at 167 degrees, thermostat isn't working right.

 

[BuickGirlFromMars]

Thanks Pirate Pete and especially thanks Buick girl from mars. Wow. That has to be the most in detail reply I've ever gotten on any forum automotive or otherwise.

That's pretty sweet if #8 and #10 in the second diagram will just bolt in. I was afraid I was going to have to do some fab work if I wanted to fix anything with these mounts. I can't tell from the diagrams if the updated front crossmember mount is a direct bolt in (due to the vertical stud which appears to go down through the crossmember). I also can't tell about the updated rear one, because if I remember correctly, the bracket that holds the mount insert (#3 in the first diagram) also holds the steering rack. I might just swap in #8 and 10 since I've already bought and poly filled replacement old style front and rear mounts. The poly is actually pretty soft, but if it vibrates annoyingly I might continue with the updated ones. Videos I watched appear to show the updated front mount failing in a way that allows really excessive powertrain movement. When the old style one fails, it doesn't increase the total movement of the powertrain, since the cross bolt is still trapped, it just decreases the amount of force it takes to create that movement, in other words it would move about the same amount just putting the car in gear as it would with the gas pedal floored from a stop. I can't tell for sure, but it appears that a failing updated front one allows more movement. ?

The background on the car is the previous owner abandoned it at a tow yard. I probably overpaid for it, $1500. I don't know how long it sat, but it sat with at least one of the windows down. Snow and rain did get inside the car. There is mold/mildew all over the carpet. There appears to be no corrosion on the floorpan though. The reason I decided to buy the car is it's almost impossible to find anything older anywhere near where I live in south dakota that hasn't been completely destroyed by the midwest road salt. This car only has 116k and underneath looks like it's from the south or CA. I spray everything underneath with synthetic gear oil with an airless sprayer and then drive on dirt roads, that completely stops rust. Undercoating does not work. And I constantly wash my vehicles in the winter. It boggles my mind how people will spend 100k on something like a new yukon and then drive it in salt without giving rust prevention a single thought.

Anyway, I think the reason the vehicle was abandoned is the oil pressure light was on, they likely assumed it was going to need major engine work, and that combined with all the other dumb stuff wrong with it was just too much. The engine was over full of oil (not enough for the crank to whip it into a foam though) and the pressure sensor was bad. It also had dexcool and whatever other type mixed, making a mess, already had the intake gaskets done, but the radiator was cracked, the belt tensioner was bad, alternator was bad, catalytic converter is breaking apart internally causing a code, (my 95 silverado did the same thing..it now has an inline pump 5.9 cummins, no converters on that!) climate control doesn't work, etc etc.

I didn't check the fuses for continuity, but my eyes have never failed me inspecting a fuse yet. When I replaced the 2 bad ones in the underseat box, I measured across the wires to see if they were pulling any power, they weren't. I also removed the body control module (just wanted to take a picture of the number on it to shop for another one) and reinstalled it. After that, I test started the car, no problem. However, a few hours later when I tried to start it, it was doing all kids of weird stuff, dash lights flashing, gauges jumping all around, door locks cycling on their own, and it killed the battery. Only cranked about half a turn. I thought it hydrolocked or it was the security system at first, I didn't know what to think. But that didn't make sense, so I disconnected the battery and clamped the wires together to get rid of residual voltage while I recharged the battery. I also pulled the 2 fuses I replaced back out, but they still weren't pulling power, at least at that time. After that it started back up. I drove the car over 4 hours yesterday, just felt like taking a gamble I guess, but it performed fine. Cruise control, interior lighting, key fob, etc still don't work.

Right now I'm going to go out and change the thermostat, oil and filter. Cruising at 167 degrees, thermostat isn't working right.

if you are going to do the rear mount, you may as well get a different steering rack and crossmember from a 1998+ car because the 1998+ car has a different lower control arm design as well. its drop in but the steering gear is 1 year only, the rear mount (and probably the bracket on the trans), and the lower control arm. 1998-2005 will work so if you find a parts car you can take it all in one go

also your BCM is of concern but its not ruled an issue yet. do you have a scan tool?

 

[BuickGirlFromMars]

Thanks Pirate Pete and especially thanks Buick girl from mars. Wow. That has to be the most in detail reply I've ever gotten on any forum automotive or otherwise.

That's pretty sweet if #8 and #10 in the second diagram will just bolt in. I was afraid I was going to have to do some fab work if I wanted to fix anything with these mounts. I can't tell from the diagrams if the updated front crossmember mount is a direct bolt in (due to the vertical stud which appears to go down through the crossmember). I also can't tell about the updated rear one, because if I remember correctly, the bracket that holds the mount insert (#3 in the first diagram) also holds the steering rack. I might just swap in #8 and 10 since I've already bought and poly filled replacement old style front and rear mounts. The poly is actually pretty soft, but if it vibrates annoyingly I might continue with the updated ones. Videos I watched appear to show the updated front mount failing in a way that allows really excessive powertrain movement. When the old style one fails, it doesn't increase the total movement of the powertrain, since the cross bolt is still trapped, it just decreases the amount of force it takes to create that movement, in other words it would move about the same amount just putting the car in gear as it would with the gas pedal floored from a stop. I can't tell for sure, but it appears that a failing updated front one allows more movement. ?

The background on the car is the previous owner abandoned it at a tow yard. I probably overpaid for it, $1500. I don't know how long it sat, but it sat with at least one of the windows down. Snow and rain did get inside the car. There is mold/mildew all over the carpet. There appears to be no corrosion on the floorpan though. The reason I decided to buy the car is it's almost impossible to find anything older anywhere near where I live in south dakota that hasn't been completely destroyed by the midwest road salt. This car only has 116k and underneath looks like it's from the south or CA. I spray everything underneath with synthetic gear oil with an airless sprayer and then drive on dirt roads, that completely stops rust. Undercoating does not work. And I constantly wash my vehicles in the winter. It boggles my mind how people will spend 100k on something like a new yukon and then drive it in salt without giving rust prevention a single thought.

Anyway, I think the reason the vehicle was abandoned is the oil pressure light was on, they likely assumed it was going to need major engine work, and that combined with all the other dumb stuff wrong with it was just too much. The engine was over full of oil (not enough for the crank to whip it into a foam though) and the pressure sensor was bad. It also had dexcool and whatever other type mixed, making a mess, already had the intake gaskets done, but the radiator was cracked, the belt tensioner was bad, alternator was bad, catalytic converter is breaking apart internally causing a code, (my 95 silverado did the same thing..it now has an inline pump 5.9 cummins, no converters on that!) climate control doesn't work, etc etc.

I didn't check the fuses for continuity, but my eyes have never failed me inspecting a fuse yet. When I replaced the 2 bad ones in the underseat box, I measured across the wires to see if they were pulling any power, they weren't. I also removed the body control module (just wanted to take a picture of the number on it to shop for another one) and reinstalled it. After that, I test started the car, no problem. However, a few hours later when I tried to start it, it was doing all kids of weird stuff, dash lights flashing, gauges jumping all around, door locks cycling on their own, and it killed the battery. Only cranked about half a turn. I thought it hydrolocked or it was the security system at first, I didn't know what to think. But that didn't make sense, so I disconnected the battery and clamped the wires together to get rid of residual voltage while I recharged the battery. I also pulled the 2 fuses I replaced back out, but they still weren't pulling power, at least at that time. After that it started back up. I drove the car over 4 hours yesterday, just felt like taking a gamble I guess, but it performed fine. Cruise control, interior lighting, key fob, etc still don't work.

Right now I'm going to go out and change the thermostat, oil and filter. Cruising at 167 degrees, thermostat isn't working right.

Thermostat and gasket on that car is different than most 3800s of that era. 1998 they changed to a gasket around the thermostat but the 1997 has a gasket under the housing itself(like old SBCs did)

 

[90sbuickrescue]

Thanks again for the info. Just curious, how do you know so much about these cars?

It's almost like they released the initial design as a beta test, how they kept changing things like the tensioner/alternator/heater hoses, mounts, steering rack, control arms, etc over just a few years. Not exactly a move inspiring confidence in their engineering team. I moved away from american cars for about a decade after my high school experience with my first car, also a buick. But after seeing the difference on paper vs in reality between cars like the infiniti g35/37 and a "lowly" car like my grand prix gtp, with its "totally outdated" powertrain that in the real world delivers great performance, while effortlessly loping along at highway speeds, I started coming back around. I really like the way the doors open and close on the park ave, and look at the hinges. They're something you expect on a european or higher end car. That tells me a lot about how the car is going to creak, squeak and rattle. Not much at all. An absolutely astounding difference in build quality between a Caddy of the same era and the park ave. The only thing good about the fwd caddys is the 4t80e. They should have set that up behind the supercharged 3.8s. The 4t65-"hd" behind any real power is like running a 4l60 in a 1 ton and expecting it to survive.

My car did have the tapered O ring that fits around the body of the thermostat itself, not a flat gasket. I figured the 2 are interchangeable. What annoyed me about the thermostat replacement was I bought a Gates one, but a Motorad one was in the box. The one that failed was an identical Motorad. So I went over to my local napa, all Motorads there too. They'll all likely fail the same way, the rubber seal disintegrating like mine, so the thermostat can't effectively close. I guess that's better than sticking closed, but still, I would not design a thermostat with a rubber seal!

All I have for a scan tool at the moment is the ht300 scan tool from wal mart, I think it was about $40. I don't think it can look at any body codes, and I know for sure it can't cycle abs pumps. At some point I do plan on buying a better one, with a lot more diagnostic ability.

 

[Pirate Pete]

Thanks again for the info. Just curious, how do you know so much about these cars?

It's almost like they released the initial design as a beta test, how they kept changing things like the tensioner/alternator/heater hoses, mounts, steering rack, control arms, etc over just a few years. Not exactly a move inspiring confidence in their engineering team. I moved away from american cars for about a decade after my high school experience with my first car, also a buick. But after seeing the difference on paper vs in reality between cars like the infiniti g35/37 and a "lowly" car like my grand prix gtp, with its "totally outdated" powertrain that in the real world delivers great performance, while effortlessly loping along at highway speeds, I started coming back around. I really like the way the doors open and close on the park ave, and look at the hinges. They're something you expect on a european or higher end car. That tells me a lot about how the car is going to creak, squeak and rattle. Not much at all. An absolutely astounding difference in build quality between a Caddy of the same era and the park ave. The only thing good about the fwd caddys is the 4t80e. They should have set that up behind the supercharged 3.8s. The 4t65-"hd" behind any real power is like running a 4l60 in a 1 ton and expecting it to survive.

My car did have the tapered O ring that fits around the body of the thermostat itself, not a flat gasket. I figured the 2 are interchangeable. What annoyed me about the thermostat replacement was I bought a Gates one, but a Motorad one was in the box. The one that failed was an identical Motorad. So I went over to my local napa, all Motorads there too. They'll all likely fail the same way, the rubber seal disintegrating like mine, so the thermostat can't effectively close. I guess that's better than sticking closed, but still, I would not design a thermostat with a rubber seal!

All I have for a scan tool at the moment is the ht300 scan tool from wal mart, I think it was about $40. I don't think it can look at any body codes, and I know for sure it can't cycle abs pumps. At some point I do plan on buying a better one, with a lot more diagnostic ability.

Buick Girl sure knows a lot 💪 I too appreciate her knowledge. As for first release being beta models that's how it works with all companies. I made the biggest mistake buying a Ford Focus when they first came out in 2000. It's had more recalls than every car I've owned in my 37 years of driving . Can't count howany times it was on a tow truck. Coil packs melted twice, plastic thermostat housing melted twice and so on. Glad that car is gone. On the flip side of the coin my we bought a 2010 Kia Soul when they were first introduced to the market. It's now 13 years old and hasn't even had 1 leak . The 1st Gen Kia souls had Hyundai's most reliable engine in it and the SOB keeps going . Hard to give up a car that reliable. My wife drives it. Anyway, first generation of most cars are a gamble in my opinion. These days I refuse to buy a new car as they are a bad investment and way over priced . Long live Buick. ❤️

 

[BuickGirlFromMars]

Thanks again for the info. Just curious, how do you know so much about these cars?

It's almost like they released the initial design as a beta test, how they kept changing things like the tensioner/alternator/heater hoses, mounts, steering rack, control arms, etc over just a few years. Not exactly a move inspiring confidence in their engineering team. I moved away from american cars for about a decade after my high school experience with my first car, also a buick. But after seeing the difference on paper vs in reality between cars like the infiniti g35/37 and a "lowly" car like my grand prix gtp, with its "totally outdated" powertrain that in the real world delivers great performance, while effortlessly loping along at highway speeds, I started coming back around. I really like the way the doors open and close on the park ave, and look at the hinges. They're something you expect on a european or higher end car. That tells me a lot about how the car is going to creak, squeak and rattle. Not much at all. An absolutely astounding difference in build quality between a Caddy of the same era and the park ave. The only thing good about the fwd caddys is the 4t80e. They should have set that up behind the supercharged 3.8s. The 4t65-"hd" behind any real power is like running a 4l60 in a 1 ton and expecting it to survive.

My car did have the tapered O ring that fits around the body of the thermostat itself, not a flat gasket. I figured the 2 are interchangeable. What annoyed me about the thermostat replacement was I bought a Gates one, but a Motorad one was in the box. The one that failed was an identical Motorad. So I went over to my local napa, all Motorads there too. They'll all likely fail the same way, the rubber seal disintegrating like mine, so the thermostat can't effectively close. I guess that's better than sticking closed, but still, I would not design a thermostat with a rubber seal!

All I have for a scan tool at the moment is the ht300 scan tool from wal mart, I think it was about $40. I don't think it can look at any body codes, and I know for sure it can't cycle abs pumps. At some point I do plan on buying a better one, with a lot more diagnostic ability.

i know about the 4t65e surviving thing lol. my car is outback with out a trans pan on, I had granola in my fluid from an oopsie 🙁
The thermostat design and o ring is not interchangeable, can you send a picture of your block and your thermostat housing? If you send a picture of the housing from the outside it should be determinable to see what it is. The block is different on 97 and older series 2 (95-97) on that pad and the housing is shaped differently to keep the design differences separate. and I agree about the design of the thermostat thing.

if you get a Tech 2 or something like an autel mk808(just an example) you can do a LOT with your car. I have both of those tools and the mk808 is a little strange to use but it has most of the functions that a tech 2 has, but it has the ability to read most modern vehicles 96+ so it has more use to someone who doesnt just own GM cars for a similar price.

The only body codes you can read on your car without a tool are HVAC codes sadly.

the park avenue fortunately (if you can say that) isnt the first car of the platform (The platform was started in 1994 by the Buick Riviera and 1995 Oldsmobile Aurora). The Riviera and Aurora had a very different beginning themselves where the suspension arms in front were cast iron, the brakes were very different, and the subframes and engine mounting setups were very different.

The 1997 model year was a one off year for all three cars since they went away from cast iron control arms(not found on buick park avenue since it started in 1997) and old brakes and changed the design of the craddles massively that year.
However they had a known issue with high speed shake due to the design of the front control arms. so bad they changed it entirely for the next model year on all 3 car lines. The steering racks also changed but I think that was to change the way they secured to the new design craddles, not to change anything inherent about the racks.

I know a lot about these cars because Ive owned 4 cars on the platform
(1998 Park Avenue, 1999 Park Avenue Ultra, 1999 Oldsmobile Aurora, 2001 Oldsmobile Aurora) and have worked a lot with another car on the platform (2003 Buick Lesabre) and have a lot of insider knowledge about cars also on the platform like the Pontiac Bonneville and the Buick Lucerne. My brain also tends to just hold information I learn, its kinda a curse. I productively use that advantage to help others on here as doing so expands my knowledge more and helps others.

I also work on my own cars since my first car was a 1990 C car (1990 Oldsmobile 88, which was the same platform as the gen 1 Park Avenues and the same year Lesabres) in 2016. I had to figure things out or not have a car lol. That introduced me to the pre-series 1 3800 and 440-t4 (4t60) transmission, which are both precursors to the 4t60e, 4t65e(and HD) transmissions and the 3800 series 1 and 2 and 3 engines.

 

[90sbuickrescue]

Pirate Pete, I just personally haven't been aware of any other vehicle with that many changes in a couple years. Improving part quality or changing suppliers with things like coil packs, fuel pumps, injectors, sensors, etc is more what I would expect, vs changing the actual design of so many parts. Tensioner/alternator/coolant lines, motor mounts, control arms, subframes, etc. Good luck with the Kia, they have an insane amount of recalls for fires. I'm very cognizant of those risks ever since one of my cars caught on fire 20 years ago. Old honda that I turbocharged, 22 year old me didn't know straight coolant was flammable. Upper part of the radiator cracked and the auto parts store where I was only had straight coolant, so I added that, then bought a few gallons of distilled water on the way home. About 40 minutes later coming off the freeway enough coolant sprayed onto the manifold to catch on fire. Flames were coming out of the grille when I yanked the parking brake to stop. I reached through that to pop the hood and dunked it with the distilled water. I could have been really screwed if I didn't have that water, although just opening the hood let a lot of that trapped heat up and out. On the 3.8s the first thing I do is take the engine cover off and throw it in the trash, they had a recall for engine fires. With a valve cover gasket leak, oil drips onto the exhaust manifold, small flame ignites the plastic spark plug wire retainers, then it goes up to that cover, then across the engine bay laterally, and the 3.8s have plastic fuel lines too.

Buick girl from mars, I'm not sure about my thermostat housing, parts store showed flat gaskets and the tapered O ring, I just said "I want the O ring" since that's what I took out and it fit. On second thought maybe it does have a new lower manifold, since I'm pretty sure someone did the gaskets at some point, due to all the stuff not clicked back in place correctly.
I have more to come back and write later, but at this moment I just have 2 questions, first is probably not something most people would even notice, but when I pulled the heater lines from the tensioner, I noticed one of them had some kind of spring loaded plastic valve thing in it. Do you know what that is? I assumed it was some kind of flow restrictor. It had partially disintegrated, chunks of plastic were crumbling and falling out. I didn't have a new hose and I didn't want any more of those little plastic pieces going through my water pump or getting stuck anywhere, so carefully removed it, it's just an open cylinder at the end of the hose now.
Second question, do you have any more information on the control arm redesign and the shaking at speed thing? My 02 gtp and my 99 regal both use the same lower control arm design as my 97 park ave, front bushing with a vertical bolt and rear bushing with a horizontal cross bolt. My park Ave does have a shake at speed, but I immediately assumed it's tires out of balance, because that's always what it's been on my other cars. Except my old 530i. The tires on that now seem to get flat spotted after sitting even for a day or 2. It smooths out after maybe 5 miles or so, then the steering wheel stops twitching from side to side. But I haven't heard anything about the regal or grand prix having any kind of shaking problem due to that control arm design. ? I would instinctively choose the newer design with both bushings inline with the axis of rotation, it does seem really weird with that vertical bolt, the way that bushing doesn't rotate, instead just deforming any time the arm isn't aligned with it.

 

[BuickGirlFromMars]

F

Pirate Pete, I just personally haven't been aware of any other vehicle with that many changes in a couple years. Improving part quality or changing suppliers with things like coil packs, fuel pumps, injectors, sensors, etc is more what I would expect, vs changing the actual design of so many parts. Tensioner/alternator/coolant lines, motor mounts, control arms, subframes, etc. Good luck with the Kia, they have an insane amount of recalls for fires. I'm very cognizant of those risks ever since one of my cars caught on fire 20 years ago. Old honda that I turbocharged, 22 year old me didn't know straight coolant was flammable. Upper part of the radiator cracked and the auto parts store where I was only had straight coolant, so I added that, then bought a few gallons of distilled water on the way home. About 40 minutes later coming off the freeway enough coolant sprayed onto the manifold to catch on fire. Flames were coming out of the grille when I yanked the parking brake to stop. I reached through that to pop the hood and dunked it with the distilled water. I could have been really screwed if I didn't have that water, although just opening the hood let a lot of that trapped heat up and out. On the 3.8s the first thing I do is take the engine cover off and throw it in the trash, they had a recall for engine fires. With a valve cover gasket leak, oil drips onto the exhaust manifold, small flame ignites the plastic spark plug wire retainers, then it goes up to that cover, then across the engine bay laterally, and the 3.8s have plastic fuel lines too.

Buick girl from mars, I'm not sure about my thermostat housing, parts store showed flat gaskets and the tapered O ring, I just said "I want the O ring" since that's what I took out and it fit. On second thought maybe it does have a new lower manifold, since I'm pretty sure someone did the gaskets at some point, due to all the stuff not clicked back in place correctly.
I have more to come back and write later, but at this moment I just have 2 questions, first is probably not something most people would even notice, but when I pulled the heater lines from the tensioner, I noticed one of them had some kind of spring loaded plastic valve thing in it. Do you know what that is? I assumed it was some kind of flow restrictor. It had partially disintegrated, chunks of plastic were crumbling and falling out. I didn't have a new hose and I didn't want any more of those little plastic pieces going through my water pump or getting stuck anywhere, so carefully removed it, it's just an open cylinder at the end of the hose now.
Second question, do you have any more information on the control arm redesign and the shaking at speed thing? My 02 gtp and my 99 regal both use the same lower control arm design as my 97 park ave, front bushing with a vertical bolt and rear bushing with a horizontal cross bolt. My park Ave does have a shake at speed, but I immediately assumed it's tires out of balance, because that's always what it's been on my other cars. Except my old 530i. The tires on that now seem to get flat spotted after sitting even for a day or 2. It smooths out after maybe 5 miles or so, then the steering wheel stops twitching from side to side. But I haven't heard anything about the regal or grand prix having any kind of shaking problem due to that control arm design. ? I would instinctively choose the newer design with both bushings inline with the axis of rotation, it does seem really weird with that vertical bolt, the way that bushing doesn't rotate, instead just deforming any time the arm isn't aligned with it.

ord f series from the late 70s to the mid 80s had a LOT of changes but it was spread among like 4-5 years and not 1-3 like park avenue.

 

[BuickGirlFromMars]

Pirate Pete, I just personally haven't been aware of any other vehicle with that many changes in a couple years. Improving part quality or changing suppliers with things like coil packs, fuel pumps, injectors, sensors, etc is more what I would expect, vs changing the actual design of so many parts. Tensioner/alternator/coolant lines, motor mounts, control arms, subframes, etc. Good luck with the Kia, they have an insane amount of recalls for fires. I'm very cognizant of those risks ever since one of my cars caught on fire 20 years ago. Old honda that I turbocharged, 22 year old me didn't know straight coolant was flammable. Upper part of the radiator cracked and the auto parts store where I was only had straight coolant, so I added that, then bought a few gallons of distilled water on the way home. About 40 minutes later coming off the freeway enough coolant sprayed onto the manifold to catch on fire. Flames were coming out of the grille when I yanked the parking brake to stop. I reached through that to pop the hood and dunked it with the distilled water. I could have been really screwed if I didn't have that water, although just opening the hood let a lot of that trapped heat up and out. On the 3.8s the first thing I do is take the engine cover off and throw it in the trash, they had a recall for engine fires. With a valve cover gasket leak, oil drips onto the exhaust manifold, small flame ignites the plastic spark plug wire retainers, then it goes up to that cover, then across the engine bay laterally, and the 3.8s have plastic fuel lines too.

Buick girl from mars, I'm not sure about my thermostat housing, parts store showed flat gaskets and the tapered O ring, I just said "I want the O ring" since that's what I took out and it fit. On second thought maybe it does have a new lower manifold, since I'm pretty sure someone did the gaskets at some point, due to all the stuff not clicked back in place correctly.
I have more to come back and write later, but at this moment I just have 2 questions, first is probably not something most people would even notice, but when I pulled the heater lines from the tensioner, I noticed one of them had some kind of spring loaded plastic valve thing in it. Do you know what that is? I assumed it was some kind of flow restrictor. It had partially disintegrated, chunks of plastic were crumbling and falling out. I didn't have a new hose and I didn't want any more of those little plastic pieces going through my water pump or getting stuck anywhere, so carefully removed it, it's just an open cylinder at the end of the hose now.
Second question, do you have any more information on the control arm redesign and the shaking at speed thing? My 02 gtp and my 99 regal both use the same lower control arm design as my 97 park ave, front bushing with a vertical bolt and rear bushing with a horizontal cross bolt. My park Ave does have a shake at speed, but I immediately assumed it's tires out of balance, because that's always what it's been on my other cars. Except my old 530i. The tires on that now seem to get flat spotted after sitting even for a day or 2. It smooths out after maybe 5 miles or so, then the steering wheel stops twitching from side to side. But I haven't heard anything about the regal or grand prix having any kind of shaking problem due to that control arm design. ? I would instinctively choose the newer design with both bushings inline with the axis of rotation, it does seem really weird with that vertical bolt, the way that bushing doesn't rotate, instead just deforming any time the arm isn't aligned with it.

The spring or plastic thing is very interesting the 1997 tensioner assembly is different too so I don’t recall it off top of my head. Can you show me a picture of what it looks like?
And the control arm design had more issue to do with the size and weight of the car than the design of the control arm. The w bodies (regal and Grand Prix) are smaller and are designed differently. The joint on park avenue allowed too much movement in undesirable directions while the redesign tightened it up and put a hydraulic bushing in that increases dampening stiffness at different speeds.

 

[90sbuickrescue]

14:17 or so "To minimize the high speed shake concern, buick had to reduce the sensitivity of the car"

I took this to mean the hydraulic bushing has more play, not less, but it's damped hydraulically. Hmm.

I wonder if anyone's ever pressed out the rubber on the newer design arm for poly bushings, and if they have, how that drives.

 

[BuickGirlFromMars]

14:17 or so "To minimize the high speed shake concern, buick had to reduce the sensitivity of the car"

I took this to mean the hydraulic bushing has more play, not less, but it's damped hydraulically. Hmm.

I wonder if anyone's ever pressed out the rubber on the newer design arm for poly bushings, and if they have, how that drives.

It would be too stiff. And Buick know how from the era is awesome! The joint has to have movement. The rear bushings(2 small cups) would probably benefit on the control arm but I’ve never seen those bushings sold on their own

 

[Pirate Pete]

Pirate Pete, I just personally haven't been aware of any other vehicle with that many changes in a couple years. Improving part quality or changing suppliers with things like coil packs, fuel pumps, injectors, sensors, etc is more what I would expect, vs changing the actual design of so many parts. Tensioner/alternator/coolant lines, motor mounts, control arms, subframes, etc. Good luck with the Kia, they have an insane amount of recalls for fires. I'm very cognizant of those risks ever since one of my cars caught on fire 20 years ago. Old honda that I turbocharged, 22 year old me didn't know straight coolant was flammable. Upper part of the radiator cracked and the auto parts store where I was only had straight coolant, so I added that, then bought a few gallons of distilled water on the way home. About 40 minutes later coming off the freeway enough coolant sprayed onto the manifold to catch on fire. Flames were coming out of the grille when I yanked the parking brake to stop. I reached through that to pop the hood and dunked it with the distilled water. I could have been really screwed if I didn't have that water, although just opening the hood let a lot of that trapped heat up and out. On the 3.8s the first thing I do is take the engine cover off and throw it in the trash, they had a recall for engine fires. With a valve cover gasket leak, oil drips onto the exhaust manifold, small flame ignites the plastic spark plug wire retainers, then it goes up to that cover, then across the engine bay laterally, and the 3.8s have plastic fuel lines too.

Buick girl from mars, I'm not sure about my thermostat housing, parts store showed flat gaskets and the tapered O ring, I just said "I want the O ring" since that's what I took out and it fit. On second thought maybe it does have a new lower manifold, since I'm pretty sure someone did the gaskets at some point, due to all the stuff not clicked back in place correctly.
I have more to come back and write later, but at this moment I just have 2 questions, first is probably not something most people would even notice, but when I pulled the heater lines from the tensioner, I noticed one of them had some kind of spring loaded plastic valve thing in it. Do you know what that is? I assumed it was some kind of flow restrictor. It had partially disintegrated, chunks of plastic were crumbling and falling out. I didn't have a new hose and I didn't want any more of those little plastic pieces going through my water pump or getting stuck anywhere, so carefully removed it, it's just an open cylinder at the end of the hose now.
Second question, do you have any more information on the control arm redesign and the shaking at speed thing? My 02 gtp and my 99 regal both use the same lower control arm design as my 97 park ave, front bushing with a vertical bolt and rear bushing with a horizontal cross bolt. My park Ave does have a shake at speed, but I immediately assumed it's tires out of balance, because that's always what it's been on my other cars. Except my old 530i. The tires on that now seem to get flat spotted after sitting even for a day or 2. It smooths out after maybe 5 miles or so, then the steering wheel stops twitching from side to side. But I haven't heard anything about the regal or grand prix having any kind of shaking problem due to that control arm design. ? I would instinctively choose the newer design with both bushings inline with the axis of rotation, it does seem really weird with that vertical bolt, the way that bushing doesn't rotate, instead just deforming any time the arm isn't aligned with it.

The 2010 Kia soul is not the one thata engine goes up in flames. That's the newer model. This one has the better engine of all model years which is why they discontinued it lol. 13 years and not one gasket leak . I've only had to change the radiator , powers steering pump and an alternator over the 13 years were owned it. Everything else was regular maintenance. As for the heat shield on the 3800 I've always kept mine on so the paint on the hood don't fade. If you have a gasket leak get it fixed so that you don't have any issues . Good luck 🤞

 

[Pirate Pete]

14:17 or so "To minimize the high speed shake concern, buick had to reduce the sensitivity of the car"

I took this to mean the hydraulic bushing has more play, not less, but it's damped hydraulically. Hmm.

I wonder if anyone's ever pressed out the rubber on the newer design arm for poly bushings, and if they have, how that drives.

I cringe at poly bushings. Kills the ride.

 

[BuickGirlFromMars]

I cringe at poly bushings. Kills the ride.

some places a poly bushing is superior. such as a radius arm on fords independent front suspension setups (2x4 and 4x4). the radius arm bushing takes a lot of abuse where its at and isnt the quickest job easier. A poly bushing extends the life ten fold and also firms up handling but the ride change is almost nothing. when i get to have to replace my driver one next im going to go poly.

 

[Devin7717]

View attachment 44510
this is what your 1997 Park Avenue has

I believe starting 1998 or 1999 , maybe even 2000 this mount was starting to be used:
View attachment 44511
View attachment 44512

your part youre looking for is #11 which is 22178776
That part, as you have found, is no longer produced. Dont mind that the picture of the engine is a L67 supercharged, the mounts are no different between the L67 and L32

the proper mount setup for your year, to replace them, is this:
View attachment 44513
The "FRT" mount on the subframe down by the radiator can be purchased in the original 1997 setup like on your car, but they are inferior. the bracket and mount pictured here are much better and last longer(albeit not that much longer). Its up to you if you want to upgrade or just replace.
The rear mount on the rear of the subframe(by your steering column) is hard to replace but here are both of them if you want.
View attachment 44515

The passenger side motor mount(Torque Axis Mount) is sold new and I have replaced mine, its a bit of a process but its doable. if you dont notice excessive vibration while accelerating you can put it off.

Bracket #10 and Mount #8 and the hardware sold that attach it should all that is needed. A junkyard 1999+ should have those parts if you want to get them off a car, but the bolts are still sold new and the bracket is found easily on ebay.
25740664
View attachment 44514
note that any 1999-2005 Buick Park Avenue, 2000-2005 Buick Lesabre, 2000-2005 Pontiac Bonneville(with a V6), 2001-2003 Oldsmobile Aurora(With a V6) should be found with this bracket on the transmission. its a bitch to get out on car because of the clearance for the large bolts. I had to use a ratcheting 18mm wrench(I believe) to get them mostly in and out

#7 on the new updated parts diagram and the #10 on the one matching your car are the same bolt 25643132, this is the one with the hook that locks in on the part (mine rounded replacing it so I had to pound a 14mm socket onto it, originally was 15mm I believe)	#34 and #6 are the same part number, 25643131, this is the bolt that holds the mount in the wheel well down onto the cars unibody frame rail from by the EBCM (Abs module) hidden behind connectors and wiring for the wheel speed sensors and ABS module. The bolt is "Staked" to the body by another bolt as to prevent it from turning so you can remove the nut without having to have someone hold it from the other side for you.
#9 is the same as #12 threads and use wise but the coating is different , apparently it was galvanized in 1997 but no longer was. Thats the nut for the bolt described above. 11516078	11509699 is the bolt mentioned above that stakes the other bolt to the frame rail. #33 and #36 on the diagrams
#11 and #9 of the diagrams describe 25816658 as the bolts that connect the bracket to the trans cover, so they are the same.	Lastly, my diagrams actually fail to show a nut for the new mount on the driver side wheel well in the visual and listed format... so if you get the new mount you should check your fasteners from your old mount, one of them would only be needed. The nut should be flanged and should be 9.8, 10.9, 12.9 if you have to go to a hardware store. Mine were from a hardware store because I ended up cutting the shaft of the mount because the nut was so seized to it and the mount was shot anyway so it just spun in place. If your bolts on your 1997 are flanged and have the same threads, they will most definitely work. keep the spare if you ever need it again.

=======================================================
So I gave you a lot of information here. If you want more info about upgrading that front trans mount, let me know, but to replace the very shot mount this is the information you need.

I know this is an old post, but I'm dealing with the same driver side wheel well trans mount on my 97. I'm currently in the process of swapping to a 98 subframe to get rid of the control arm issue. Are you SURE that I can get the bracket and mount off a 99+ and get it to bolt on in place of the bracket and mount for a 97/98? I thought about going to a later subframe with the all newer mounts but am unsure one if thats even possible, but more so I have already replaced all of the other mounts so I'd prefer not to have to do it again. To clarify, I need to replace pn 22178776