Sway bar upgrade

[thejmfc]

Not even two tanks of gas into owning our new LeSabre, I already feel the need to modify it. 🙄

First, an overview of the situation, for those who are unfamiliar with these things:

Most, if not all LeSabres are equiped from the factory with FE1 (soft ride) suspension, which is the softest of all possible H-Body suspensions. What else would you expect? It's a Buick. So, it rides like a dream, but handling is quite soft too.

Other H-Bodies can have FE2 (ride and handling), FE3 (sport), or the coveted but uncommon F41 (firm ride and handling) suspensions. These different suspensions have differing spring stiffness and sway bar diameters. I'm told that the F41 and FE2 sway bars are the same, and I would assume that FE3 would also be the same as those. But the FE1 sway bars (front and rear) are smaller.

Wondering what your car has? Check the RPO codes. They can be found on a sticker either on the underside of your trunk lid, or the top of your spare tire cover. One of the above codes should be on there.

What I'm going to do, and why:

I am going to replace my FE1 front and rear sway bars with FE2 units, swiped from a junkyard Pontiac Bonneville SSE. This will help to control body roll much better than the stock parts, and hopefully give the car somewhat sportier cornering skills, and better highway stability in crosswinds, etc..

Not that it's bad as it is. I just want it to be even better.

I could also swap in the FE2 springs to give me more of what I want (see above), but firmer springs would also give a firmer ride. I really like the ride as it is, so I won't be doing that. I expect the car to feel just a bit firmer with the new sway bars, but not nearly as much as if I had done the springs too.

When I do the swap, I will be using new end links (with firm, long lasting poly bushings). New endlinks alone would likely make the car feel more responsive, as the factory units are mushy.

Questions, comments?

I'll be doing this sometime in the coming weeks, once I have all of the necessary hardware. I'll keep you posted. 😀

 

[MrldGrn94]

any chance you could take some how to photos as you complete this swap ?

 

[thejmfc]

any chance you could take some how to photos as you complete this swap ?

I hadn't thought of that, but it's a good idea. Yes, I will take a few pictures of the individual components, and of the install in progress and complete.

That said, it's really not all that complicated to do. The bars attach to the frame of the car at two points, and the end of the bars attach to the suspension. That's a bit simplified, and removal of the bar from the front requires you to pop out the steering tie-rod on at least one side, but that is the general idea of it.

I'll keep you "posted". 😀

 

[thejmfc]

An update for anyone who might care...

I went back to the junkyard today, and swiped the front sway bar from another Bonneville SSE. I only had time to get the rear last time, and they must have crushed the car in the two weeks that have passed. Fortunately, there were still two other FE2 donors there.

For those of you who might consider doing this yourselves, here's a list of vital tools for getting one of these things off.

* Sockets - as many as possible, deep and shallow, metric and standard
* 3/8" ratchet (obviously)
* 1/2" breaker bar (should be obvious, if you've ever worked on a car)
* 3/4" steel pipe, around 2' long (cheater bar/pry bar, a real life saver)
* set of metric combination wrenches (get in places that sockets can't, or to keep bolts from turning as you loosen the nut)
* vise grips (useful for removing cotter pins from steering tie-rods)
* hammer (used with vise grips to remove cotter pins, and so much more)
* awl (also useful for removing cotter pins from steering tie-rods)

So now I've actually got the bars. I still need to go to Autozone to get the new end link hardware for the front and bushings for the rear, and to Lowes to get some grade 8 bolts for the rear (Apparently, they don't sell a kit for the rear. You have to come up with it yourself.).

I plan to take a few pictures of the sway bars. I'll post them when I get them.

 

[thejmfc]

Here's a not-so-good picture of the two sway bars. The thick short one is the front, if you couldn't tell.

The front is a 32mm solid bar. It's HEAVY. I weighed it, and it's only 20 lb., but it feels like 40. Front bars for these cars came in 28mm, 30mm (the most common), and 32mm. Apparently some of the bars are hollow tubes. Not sure if there are any 32mm hollow bars out there or if it's just the smaller ones.

The rear is a 21mm solid bar. Not nearly as heavy. These also came in 18mm (most common), and 14mm. I'm tempted to take the 18mm rear that I will be removing from the LeSabre, and use it on the Bonneville, which I believe has the 14mm bar.

I'm still gathering components for the end links, and then waiting for a nice day when I'll have enough time to tear into it.

 

[MrldGrn94]

nice to see a pic. good luck with the swap, and keep those pics comming

 

[thejmfc]

Will do.

I still need to get a package of endlinks for the front, and bolts for the rear. I know what I need on the front, but the rear I must measure. Maybe I can do that on Saturday, since the wife has the car at work every other night of the week.

As for the actual install, I think I'll be shooting for Thanksgiving weekend, since my bro-in law will be around to assist then. Of course, if a nice saturday comes around before then... 😉

 

[pcmos]

Hey Everyone,
I do have the F41 on my 2000 LeSabre Limited Gran Touring, actually the issue I have right now is that the front sway bar is cracked. Yes, mine is split like an old piece of timber, I'm not so sure the heavy sway bar is really doing much and it doesn't seem to be built to take the loads. My car is an arizona car with minimal rust on the bar and 96k on the odometer, When I discovered the crack during a routine tire rotation I was shocked. I've included a couple of pictures here so you can see the failure, this is on the passenger side.

 

[thejmfc]

If I hadn't seen the pictures, I would never have believed it. That must have been a manufacturing flaw. I've never heard of any sway bar on any car ever doing that.

Look at the size of that bar compared to the little end link bolts with their plastic spacers. No way could that bar ever fail in that way unless it was defective.

You really should replace it. It's quite important to your car's handling.

And welcome to the forum. Not to get off-topic or anything...

 

[HotZ28]

Looks more like a manufacturing defect to me!

 

[thejmfc]

Update:

It was too cold to do anything this involved over Thanksgiving weekend. It may have to wait until spring. It's really not a priority right now, but that's another story...

 

[thejmfc]

I've not been here much lately, but that's partly because my LeSabre has been parked in the garage with a grenaded transmission. Well, I just couldn't ever find time to do the work myself, so I finally had a lightly used GM Reman tranny put in about a month ago. One year warranty... So far so good.

But while they did that, I had them put in the front sway bar that I got for it, along with new poly end links.

And now, this past weekend, I installed the 21mm rear sway bar, and poly end links there as well.

So... After a good 6 months, she's back and better than ever.

The handling is far improved. The usual Buick lean in the corners is all but gone. Highway onramps are something to look forward to now, instead of fear. Quick lane changes are very stable, even with stock 205 wide rubber.

I'm glad that I had the chance to drive it for a couple of weeks with the new front bar and the old rear bar. It helped me to appreciate the work that a rear bar does. It's more than you'd think by looking at it, as small as it is when compared with the front. Without the rear upgraded, a quick lane change was just slightly scary. It felt a bit squirley. There was a bit more lean too, but mainly it just felt like the car wanted to swap ends. Not bad at all, but not a good feeling. The rear upgrade made that go away entirely.

I'd be curious what upgrading JUST the rear would feel like, but there's no way I'm removing that front again just to satisfy my curiosity.

I'll probably add pictures to this sometime in the next few days...

 

[thejmfc]

And... a picture.

That is the old one on the right, and the new one on the left.

I really didn't think to take any in-progress pictures, mostly because I was in a big hurry to get this thing done, and get in the pool. heh... It was a warm one. The rear really is as easy as it looks like it should be. Hardest part, as always, was getting off the old rusted end link bolts. I ended up using a vise-grips to tear away at the top rubber bushing, and then hacksaw through the bolt at that point. The stock washers don't really allow for a socket or wrench to get a deep enough grip on the bolt head on the bottom. Good enough for them to tighten it, sure... not to get it off years later though.

After those are off, it's just two bolts holding the bar to the body. Then it just slides out. Reverse to install. For the new end links, I used the Energy Suspension bushing-and-washer-only kit, and some stainless steel 3/8" x 3" bolts and locknuts. Stainless is quite strong, and the bolts are much thicker than stock, so I have no doubt that they'll hold just fine. I chose bolt thickness based on the inside diameter of the washers and bushings, not what what the stock size was.

I wish I had a better how-to for the front, but since they had to drop that subframe anyway... it just made sense for them to fit the new bar at the same time.

As always, I'll be happy to answer any questions, or clarify anything that isn't clear. 🙂

 

[absolutepressure]

I'm looking at doing a similar swap.

I have a 2004 Buick LeSabre....why a 19yo has a Buick LeSabre is totally another story which I might tell in the new member section.

Anyway, I'm wondering if the "ride and handling" rear sway bar, bracket, and links from a 2004 Park Avenue would bolt right up to my car. I want to greatly improve the handling of this car, as it doesn't have a rear bar at all from the factory.

I was going to get the "ride and handling" package from a LeSabre so equiped, but found out by cross referencing part numbers that the "ride and handling" package on the lesabre is the same as the park's "soft suspension" package. This is why I want to get the ones from the Park. They're both G bodies, right? Even though the wheelbase is a little longer on the Park?

I found a website, gm parts direct (don't want to connect it incase I'm not "allowed to yet" by the forum). All the parts that I've looked up so far have been damn near half price! Small rear bar went from like $70 to $40 and the big one went from $142 to $84!

So yeah, I'm hopin you guys can give me the thumbs up on fitment!

 

[thejmfc]

Sorry for the delay in a reply. I don't make it in here as often as I'd like.

If the front bars from the LeSabre and the Park Ave cross reference like you say they do, I would think that it would work. For the front bar at least.

I think they're both g-bodies, but I'm not so familiar with the newer models. More of an H-body man myself.

Do you really not have a rear sway bar at all? That's crazy. Even base model Lesabres of years past had rear sways. Not much to speak of... but they were there. Maybe GM just decided that rather than put on a swab bar so thin that it's presence was mostly symbolic, it would just cut the cost and delete it.

With the wheelbase difference, I'm unsure if the suspension will be the same in the rear of both cars, but it probably is. Hopefully all of the holes, etc. are there for the sway bar mounting.

The prices you quote aren't tooo bad, but you could probably do a lot better from a junkyard.

Remember also that if you're going up much in the size of the bar, you'll probably also want the bigger mounts/bushings. And, of course, any mounts and brackets needed to mount a bar on the rear.

Hope it works out. Good luck.

 

[jase386]

to AbsolutePressure, dont forget the 2000 Bonneville. check to see if they have rear sway bars.. they should have the same chassis as the lesabre.. moreso than the park avenue

 

[thejmfc]

Good call. The 2000+ Bonneville is for sure on the same platform, and I'm sure they do have a better handling package under the SSEi models. If you wanted to go all out, you could even steal the springs in addition to the sways.

As always, be sure to check the RPO sticker to make sure you're not swapping in the same thing you've already got (probably FE1).

 

[absolutepressure]

I just called the junkyard and the guy said he'd be able to get me everything (since I do not have any rear sway at all, visual confirmation 😉 ) for about $60. That's pretty sweet. 😀 Good call on the bonny, same bar. But now here's a new question; even though it's in a slightly different platform category (according to this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GM_platforms) a caddy seville has the same wheel base, and pretty close other dimensions as given by this http://consumerguideauto.howstuffworks.com/2000-to-2005-buick-lesabre-6.htm and this http://consumerguideauto.howstuffworks.com/1998-to-2004-cadillac-seville-6.htm. If it is the same bar shape, that would be sweet since it's 22mm in dia as opposed to the 20mm you get with the Ultra and SSEi.

I'll post up the research I did. These are all of the part numbers, the quantity of each that you would need to do a stiffer rear sway bar swap, and their prices off of http://gmpartsdirect.com. Be advised that I haven't done it yet, but I'm 95% sure this is all of it.

25650388 shaft rr (rear sway bar) $86.05 (x1) (the 20mm)
25684759 link (rear sway link) $9.87 (x2)
25689592 bracket (guessing the clamp to hold on the bar) $6.08 (x2)
25650389 insulator (bushing) $5.28 (x2)
25604387 bolt (I'm guessing bolt for the brackets, I think the links are threaded) $2.52 (x2)

25666234 shaft rr (rear sway bar for seville, not sure on fitment, but would be sweet) $84.56 (x1)

Do you guys think that the 22mm might be too stiff since it was designed for a heavier car? I personally doubt it, because I think that's the thickness people are putting on A4's now. Not only that, but I'm guessing you could triangulate the heck out of and double up on the rear sway(s) and still get understeer. I hate it when they design for understeer.

As they say "Understeer scares the driver, Oversteer scares the passenger."

Hope this helps some of you guys out there. I won't actually do the install for probably a month since I won't be back from school 'til then. But when I do, I'll take pictures of the process.

 

[absolutepressure]

So, I went down to the junk yard, and lucky me, they had a 99 STS there. I bought it for $50 yes, the whole car,

....

jk (very nice considering a new one is $84) with just some surface rust and a couple incomplete endlinks (and complete brackets). I'm pretty sure they're the exact same rear ends. A 97 park ave has the exact same too. Don't know why the wheel base is different. Maybe front of the park is different.

Naturally, now my problem is I don't have any end links. I was on jegs and found some Prothane ones http://www.jegs.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_10001_10002_762164_-1_10059 but to me the nipple part of the bushings doesn't look long enough. It seems like there would be a gap inbetween them due to the thickness of the control (swing?) arm and the bar end, allowing the bolt to hit both and slop around. I know a lot of people on bonnevilleclub.com keep mentioning Energy Suspension, but on jegs, they don't have any universal or rear links. The main reason I put that link in there is so that one of you nice people can, as per their directions, measure both dimension "A" and just the collar (if I want to go with Energy). I'm gonna call Prothane and ask them why the black ones are so much cheaper, because on their site they say that the only difference IS the color 😕 that must be some expensive dye. What do you guys think? (Not just about the dye)

Last question. Does anyone make poly bushings for the rear bar? It's an odd style, with it being a one bolt and kinda squarish. (Different from jmfc's)
Oh, and what should I torque them to?
Thanks for the help!

*Edit/Note: The bars don't have to be both parallel and horizontal, just parallel when the car is sitting on the ground as it normally would. If your bars aren't normally parallel, then you have an oops

Thanks again. The sooner I get this info the sooner I can end the body lean!

Oh, in reagard to the springs, I don't know if the Caddy has stiffer ones or not, but do they weaken with time? It's a '99. I know it's bad to get stiffer shocks and not stiffer springs, but can you get stiffer springs and not shocks, or is that a bad thing as well?

 

[thejmfc]

I can't answer many of the questions about torque specs, link length, etc., since it's a different gen car than mine, but I do have a couple of things to note:

1) Just because people are putting a 22mm bar on their A4 doesn't necessarily mean that the bar is as stiff on that car. There are more factors to consider, like distance from the long, frame-mounted portion of the bar to the endlink holes. And the position on the rear suspension that the endlinks mount to (close to the wheel, or not). Those measurements dictate how much the bar must twist for each inch of suspension movement, and ultimately, how stiff that 22 mm bar really is in that setup. Not to mention that the bar could be hollow (probably not, but perhaps). There are just a lot of variables to consider besides just the diameter of the bar.

2) Energy suspension is a good way to go. Good, solid stuff. While I don't know how the endlinks work on your gen of LeSabre, I just cobbled up a solution for mine. As you said, Energy doesn't make a kit for the rear. I just got the kit with only the bushings and washers, and provided my own bolts and nuts (no spacers necessary on my '96). If your car does require a spacer (like the fronts), then I'd assume that one of the Energy kits would work for you. If they don't come quite short enough, you could always just cut the spacer down to what you need, and provide your own bolt.

3) I'm unaware of the STS being of the same rear-end design as the LeSabre, but I suppose it's possible that it's close enough, anyway.

4) I would imagine that it would be worse, I would think, if the spring was overpowering the damping force of the strut. Better in my mind to have a good stuff strut on a weak spring, vs. the other way around. Ideally though just a bit stiffer on each. Also I think that springs can get weaker with time and use... but a '99 shouldn't have any problems yet, unless it was overloaded with cargo or something.

Good luck. Keep the updates coming.