When to Let Your PA Go??

It sounds like you have quite a bit of knowledge fm9572 - perhaps you could map out the best diagnosis and cheapest route for the OP to take for parts and labor to get him back running. I know that's why we're all here to help each other keep our Buicks running well while not breaking the bank.
 
I spent 3 years working for a suspension company that specialized in air suspension replacement systems. The last year of that was editing the website, and doing product research for the R&D department. The GM based systems are relatively simple. The only ones with an actual computer control are the later model Cadillac systems, and the Buick Lucerne. This cuts down on diagnosis complexity.

The air systems on GM vehicles are similar to the air systems sold by companies like Air Lift and Firestone. The difference is, GM uses air shocks, similar to units sold by Gabriel (the "Highjacker") and Monroe ("Load Leveling") and coil springs that are a 'softer' rate than they would be without the air shocks, instead of air bladders that either fit inside of the coil springs or mount on top of the leaf springs.
Both the GM and the Air lift/Firestone systems use a compressor with a vent solenoid (to let air out when the system is sitting higher than it should), and a height sensor to turn the air compressor (or vent solenoid) on and off.

Diagnosis is fairly simple.

First; How many miles does the vehicle have on it? And have the rear shocks ever been serviced since it was new? Service life for most shocks is officially about 50,000 miles, as per manufacturer, either air or "standard." The air bladders on air shocks are generally made of rubber (or synthetic rubber). Exposure to; the atmosphere (air), heat, road salt, dirt, etc., causes the rubber to deteriorate. Add to that being inflated and deflated, stretching from the shocks moving up and down, causing them to stretch (think of squeezing on an inflated balloon) causes wear and tear on the rubber. If the shocks are over 10 years old, and have never been replaced, and you're having air system problems, they probably (95 times out of 100) have pinhole leaks. Most of the time, those leaks are next to impossible to see without actually removing the Shock, and fully extending it. The leaks tend to be in the "folds" of the air bladder, unless the shocks have been damaged.

When these leaks start, the air compressor and the height sensor, are fooled into thinking that either the air system has been deflated, or a heavy load has been placed in the rear of the vehicle. The compressor is turned on, and tries to bring the vehicle back to the proper height. The compressor will stay on until either it brings the vehicle back to the proper height, or the circuit breaker overheats, and cuts the power to the compressor, in an effort to save it. Most people never notice this with a GM vehicle, until they hear the compressor running with the car turned off, because unlike say, a Ford/Lincoln/Mercury, most of the weight is still held up by the coil springs in the rear. Most 'older people' who are the first owners of these vehicles rarely drive them in situations where they would notice the poor handling from the loss of spring rate, so by the time the damage is noticed, the entire system is ruined.
Technically, if you changed the shocks before the problem started, or as soon as it happened, then you probably would have problems with the compressor. This rarely, if ever, happens. Almost everyone who has problems with the air system, doesn't know until either the compressor is running "every five minutes" or has died completely, and the rear of the car sags or "bottoms out" every time you put someone in the back seat, or a load in the trunk.
Once in a blue moon, the height sensors or an air line become damaged from debris flying up and hitting them, or they wear out, but this is almost never the case.

So, by the time you KNOW you have a problem, it's usually a full blown problem. That's why I (and every company that sells replacement parts, not just the one I worked for) recommend replacing the system as a whole.

If you think that is more expensive than doing things 'piecemeal' then consider that if you just throw a compressor on the vehicle, and don't replace the shocks, then that compressor will burn out in a short period of time. If it's a new or remanufactured compressor, then if you don't replace the air shocks when you put it on, you've just voided the warranty (if it had one), so you have to BUY ANOTHER COMPRESSOR when you buy those air shocks. That means more money.
If you replace the shocks without replacing the compressor, then if the compressor is weak and damaged and has to work against those new air bladders, then it will fail shortly after you replace them. This means you have to buy the compressor anyways, and if you have a shop doing the work, that means TWO LABOR BILLS.

So, if you actually want to 'save money' and not have problems, you have two choices, replace the components in the system with new parts, or 'convert' the system. Each of them have their own benefits and limitations.

Replacing the air shocks and the compressor maintains the load leveling capacity of the rear suspension. If you're someone who wants to 'keep their vehicle stock' then this is the way to go.
I recommend KYB replacement air shocks (all of the air suspension companies that have 'cheap kits' use Chinese shocks they get for about $5 each), and a new or rebuilt compressor (most of the 'new' compressors on the market are Chinese, no matter who you buy them from).

If you aren't worried about "staying stock," then consider a 'conversion kit.' Not all 'kits' are the same. The first 'kits' that came out were just shocks with coil springs on them, instead of air bladders. These shocks will 'hold the car up,' but they don't have the proper spring rate, and tend to 'sit high' and make alignment of the rear suspension next to impossible.
The company I worked for actually did "R&D work" and developed a proper kit. The kit they developed actually replaced the air system, and made it work like a 'normal' suspension, by replacing the 'soft' coil springs, with what would have been the 'proper rate' springs if it never had air in the first place. They replace the air shocks with 'conventional' shocks. That way, the suspension sits at the proper height, and has the same load capacity as stock.

Most people think the 'ride quality' is affected by the air system, but that really isn't the case. Although 'air springs' (the air bladders) do have less 'rebound' (bounce) than coil springs, they only affect about 30% of the spring rate on this system. 95 out of 100 people in a 'blind' (meaning they aren't told which is which) test drive/ride can not tell the difference between either.

The choice comes down to if you want to 'stay stock,' and have to replace parts every few years, and 'converting,' and having to replace the shocks when they're supposed to be replaced if you want it to ride smoothly. Some shops will only replace the factory parts, some will strongly recommend the conversion (if they even know about it), and if you do your own work, you'll need an alignment from a shop after you get done with either setup.
It isn't necessarily what is 'cheapest,' but what you prefer. When it comes to suspensions, I'm always more concerned with safety, and driveablilty. Is it really worth saving a couple of bucks if you have an accident due to faulty components?
 
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I agree, PT Barnum was a smart man. You guys have devised a system that you can market to clueless people that don't realize their rear struts are shot. I wish you luck and hope it contributes to our economy. It is in no way better than the system designed by GM engineers. I don't understand why anybody would want to make a corner carver out of a luxury car but I'm sure PT would know. Personally I have a Camaro for when I feel the need for hanging corners. There are a lot of 20-30 year old GM ELC systems still riding around just fine though. Best of luck to all you suspension swappers.
 
I really appreciate all that you guys have done for me in terms of giving me all of this information for my Park Ave, but.......I don't have her anymore. 🙁

I'm going to take delivery on a 2014 Scion iQ (I know....from a big car to a little micro one lol 😀) later on today. The deal worked out really well in my favor as I didn't have to put any money down and got a grand for my PA as trade in. My ABS/TRAC lights had come on, my heat was going out, and the car was having problems starting on top of what I had mentioned in this thread.

It was a good six months of ownership and I have a newfound respect for the Park Ave and Buick cars in general. Our time was just up.

I wish you all well and thank you again!!!! 🙂

PS: I am STILL going to get a 99 Rivera Silver Arrow some day!!!
 
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I think if you own a PA (or any other 15 year old car for that matter) you should realize that the car is past it's trouble-free life. They're still useful and dependable cars but there will be more frequent repairs and maintenance. If you can muddle your way through the FSM and don't mind getting intimate with a floor jack, stands and a set of tools PA ownership can be quite satisfying.

Works for me anyway😀

Best of luck with your Scion, I'm sure it will be awesome.:headbang:
 
What about replacing the factory air shocks with Aftermarket air shocks and cutting out the auto compressor?

I am thinking of using my car to pull a trailer. Would non-auto air shocks be better than strutmasters "coil-overs"? choice of manually adjed ride heights??

The manual says to pull fuse number 9 when trailering. In my 95 Roadmaster, fuse 9 says fuel injection, so I am afraid to pull it. There is a larger item in the fuse box (relay?) that is labeled "Air Pump". I pulled that for a few days but the "service Engine" light came on. How to disconnect this system, keeping all the computers happy??

I also notice that pep boys (I know...) has some Monroe front shocks that look like coil-overs for trailering. Is this a good idea?
 
5 years ago, I replaced my leaky air shocks with some gabriel air shocks and ran an air fill valve into the trunk. I pulled the fuse and relay from under the rear seat and never looked back. Still works great and I can fill and lower when the need is there..... On to the thread title, I got a good look under the 15 year old car this year and I can already tell that fuel and brake lines will be an issue in coming years. Probably gone after this summer. otherwise, she's been a fantastic car inside and out! Uncleroy, I think if you added air shocks to the rear, the front would be fine as long as you keep them balanced.... Nice car list you got there!
 
What about replacing the factory air shocks with Aftermarket air shocks and cutting out the auto compressor?

I am thinking of using my car to pull a trailer. Would non-auto air shocks be better than strutmasters "coil-overs"? choice of manually adjed ride heights??

The manual says to pull fuse number 9 when trailering. In my 95 Roadmaster, fuse 9 says fuel injection, so I am afraid to pull it. There is a larger item in the fuse box (relay?) that is labeled "Air Pump". I pulled that for a few days but the "service Engine" light came on. How to disconnect this system, keeping all the computers happy??

I also notice that pep boys (I know...) has some Monroe front shocks that look like coil-overs for trailering. Is this a good idea?
You would be better served, asking these questions in the Roadmaster Forum. This Forum is dedicated to the PA, which has a completely different suspension system.
 
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You would be better served, asking these questions in the Roadmaster Forum. This Forum is dedicated to the PA, which has a completely different suspension system.

OOOh, good catch Hot, I didn't even notice. Entirely different beast!
 
I think if you own a PA (or any other 15 year old car for that matter) you should realize that the car is past it's trouble-free life. They're still useful and dependable cars but there will be more frequent repairs and maintenance. If you can muddle your way through the FSM and don't mind getting intimate with a floor jack, stands and a set of tools PA ownership can be quite satisfying.

Works for me anyway😀

Best of luck with your Scion, I'm sure it will be awesome.:headbang:
 
did you join this form to comment on a PARK AVENUE post when you have a 99 lesabre..... and to comment on a scion from over 7 years ago.....


also to note, this post contains a lot of muddied information, not what appears to be disinformation or lies but confabulation and recollection or misunderstood application of the things involved.

navigate at own risk.



[best understood as a class in philosophy than engineering - great for the thinkers and big picture people of the world but not studying for GM Electronic Level Control final exam]
 
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