Would like third-party opinions of a maintenance issue

[SmoothRide]

I bought my 2007 Buick LaCrosse in Oct. 2013. When I test-drove it, it seemed in almost perfect condition in every way (metallic bronze, perfect unholstery, quiet as a ghost), except that I could detect a faint odor of antifreeze in the cabin, and the odor was even stronger under the hood. There was also a "catch" in the steering, a kind of light popping or snapping feeling when I turned a corner. But the price was below Bluebook and Carfax (maybe my downfall), so I told the seller I was ready to buy the car with those problems, depending on an inspection by my mechanic first. The seller had no problem with that.

So I took the LaCrosse to a long-trusted mechanic business for inspection prior to purchase, with the specific concerns that I smelled antifreeze, and that there was a "catch" in the steering column. The mechanics found nothing wrong with the coolant system, claiming the smell was likely just some overspill (they said), but they did spot a defective output shaft seal and identified the defective steering linkage. After I bought the car, they repaired the shaft seal and steering linkage, which have caused no further problems.

However, I realized that I was having to add coolant up to the designated level on the reservoir too often, as it would run dry in a few weeks. And every time I carefully added Dexcool to the reservoir (with a funnel) the smell of antifreeze in the cabin would return. I returned the car to the mechanics with a complete write-up of the problem. They returned the car saying that I was smelling a plastic bag that had been sucked into the engine compartment onto the exhaust manifold, and that a pressure testing of the cooling system and thorough inspection showed nothing wrong, nothing leaking from the cooling system. When I asked about having to refill the coolant reservoir frequently, they told me that it was just evaporation! From a reservoir that had a very well-sealed cap - in cool weather? The radiator cap was also quite new and Buick stock for this LaCrosse.

Well, I solved my cabin smell by adding a double layer of soft rubber stripping around the edges of the engine compartment, on top of the original harder rubber sealing, which seems poorly designed, as it was actually worn down (even cut in places) by sharp edges in the metal of the hood.

So I carried on this way, watching and filling the coolant reservoir as needed (and using a funnel, careful never to spill), and trusting the antifreeze smell in the engine compartment was not to be worried about as my mechanics assured me that everything was A-OK.

Well, recently my accessory (serpentine) belt failed all of a sudden (I thought it had broken) while I was in the middle of traffic, causing the car to overheat (it "pegged out"), causing the A/C, the power steering, and the alternator to fail all at once. I immediately pulled over and stopped the engine. It was raining and dark, so all I could make out under the hood was that the belt had "derailed" and assumed that it had snapped. I had the car towed to the same mechanics, who told me that the serpentine belt had actually not broken at all, but that it had been soaked with antifreeze slowly leaking from the "coolant elbow" for so long that it had stretched and been so oily that it was finally thrown off. I was hit with a $265 bill to mount a new belt and replace the defective elbow - which I now realize must have been slowly dripping onto the serpentine belt since the first time I took it in for THEIR inspection. This is what I had repeatedly asked them to find and solve.

My question is since I recognized that there was a coolant leakage problem in October, 2013, and I returned in 2014 for the same reason, each time being told that nothing was wrong - they could either smell nothing or they blamed it on a scorched plastic bag (which does not smell like antifreeze) - should I file a complaint with Better Business Bureau or just buck up, pay the price, and never go back? (Fortunately, my engine does not seem to be damaged.)

 

[douger]

Since the coolant elbows is a common issue for 3.8 motors, it seems inexcusable that a mechanic would miss it.

Your "popping" feel in the steering? Most likely an intermediate steering shaft, which is another W body issue.

 

[SmoothRide]

Thanks, Douger!!! You know your stuff!!! 🙂

Your definitive info about the coolant elbow being a well-known issue for 3.8 engines (gosh, it's all over YouTube, now that you've filled me in) - which my repair shop had failed to identify throughout my 2 years of complaining about the antifreeze odor and the reservoir's frequent need for a refill - is all I needed to know to make a decision about continuing with my once trusty repair shop. I will not.

While I was paying for this last repair, I showed the guys at the front desk all my invoices from Oct. 2013, every invoice showing that I had expressed concern that there was always an odor of antifreeze and I continually had to add coolant to the reservoir, but they just said, "Well, you just can't find some of these problems until something major happens." Sounded like major b***s**t to me. Like "something much more EXPENSIVE happens" is more like it! 😡 There was no apology nor any offer of discount for their failure to repair a problem I kept asking them to find for two years.

You're absolutely right about the intermediate steering shaft as the cause of the "popping" feeling. At least, they identified and fixed that.

Reluctantly, as I know it will cost more, I'll be taking my LaCrosse to the local Buick dealer for any future problems. But to look on the positive side, I have a new metal coolant elbow and new serpentine belt. I'm angry about the unnecessary expense of replacing the belt (which already looked new), but even angrier about their letting my car get to the point of throwing the belt, which could have ruined my engine if I'd been out on the highway in the middle of nowhere.

 

[douger]

Thanks, Douger!!! You know your stuff!!! 🙂

Your definitive info about the coolant elbow being a well-known issue for 3.8 engines (gosh, it's all over YouTube, now that you've filled me in) - which my repair shop had failed to identify throughout my 2 years of complaining about the antifreeze odor and the reservoir's frequent need for a refill - is all I needed to know to make a decision about continuing with my once trusty repair shop. I will not.

While I was paying for this last repair, I showed the guys at the front desk all my invoices from Oct. 2013, every invoice showing that I had expressed concern that there was always an odor of antifreeze and I continually had to add coolant to the reservoir, but they just said, "Well, you just can't find some of these problems until something major happens." Sounded like major b***s**t to me. Like "something much more EXPENSIVE happens" is more like it! 😡 There was no apology nor any offer of discount for their failure to repair a problem I kept asking them to find for two years.

You're absolutely right about the intermediate steering shaft as the cause of the "popping" feeling. At least, they identified and fixed that.

Reluctantly, as I know it will cost more, I'll be taking my LaCrosse to the local Buick dealer for any future problems. But to look on the positive side, I have a new metal coolant elbow and new serpentine belt. I'm angry about the unnecessary expense of replacing the belt (which already looked new), but even angrier about their letting my car get to the point of throwing the belt, which could have ruined my engine if I'd been out on the highway in the middle of nowhere.

I'm sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but going to a dealer isn't a silver bullet either. Yes, the odds are far more in your favor that coolant elbows would be the very first thing they'd look at. But unless you've established a relationship with a service adviser, you're taking a crap shoot at the quality of tech you'd get to work on your car.

Techs... good ones... are hard to find. Dealers are often forced to hire warm bodies in order to meet their schedules. Kids fresh out of school are being pushed to flat rate status rather than getting a proper apprenticeship. Where do they learn? Your car.

I'm not a tech. I've been a GM dealership parts counterman for over 30 years. I've seen the good and the bad, and at this time, I'm not hopeful for the future of the industry.

 

[Knuckle Dragger]

Are you serious? The mechanic is responsible for the failure? Your question is ludicrous. It would have been nice if the coolant elbow was leaking enough the guy was able to find it when you brought it in, that isn't always the case. I'm also skeptical the leak caused the belt to fail. I've seen lots of coolant leaks cause a belt to slip enough to make noise never seen one cause a belt to break. Oil leaks maybe, coolant never. Your post sounds like a petulant child upset because a mechanical thing broke and you have to pay for the repairs. When you need tires next time is it going to be the mechanics fault because you asked him to look at them once or twice? Is he at fault for the vehicle needing an oil change? He did it last time right? Same logic 😉 $265 to replace the elbow and the belt is a pretty decent price. My guess is all he charged for the belt was for the part, no labor. Suck it up and live with it. Cars break, it happens.

 

[HMTJ6821]

"Petulant child!" I love it. I see many complaints on this site from owners who think that their world should be ideal--without failures--for the money they spend. I wonder if their work for their employer is as error free? Incompetence does seem to be running rampant.

Stepping off the soap box now and crawling back under the car to enjoy some peace and quiet.

 

[SmoothRide]

I'm sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but going to a dealer isn't a silver bullet either. Yes, the odds are far more in your favor that coolant elbows would be the very first thing they'd look at. But unless you've established a relationship with a service adviser, you're taking a crap shoot at the quality of tech you'd get to work on your car.

Techs... good ones... are hard to find. Dealers are often forced to hire warm bodies in order to meet their schedules. Kids fresh out of school are being pushed to flat rate status rather than getting a proper apprenticeship. Where do they learn? Your car.

I'm not a tech. I've been a GM dealership parts counterman for over 30 years. I've seen the good and the bad, and at this time, I'm not hopeful for the future of the industry.

Sad news, Douger, but thank you for filling me in on the reality. You are obviously a considerate, knowledgeable man - and a much appreciated "insider" in this industry. Since the tech staff at my once A+ service shop - which used to be mostly mature veteran mechanics who could "nail" my problems immediately - is now mostly new guys who seem anywhere from 18 to 21 years old - kids - kids who even managed to carelessly break several of the plastic vanes in my cabin intake cowl when I just asked them to clear the intake area of debris. I didn't complain - just super-glued the vanes back together. But now I see that should have been a sign to move on. So your answer is obviously right on the mark. Missing an antifreeze leak that I've been smelling, finding on my driveway, and constantly refilling since Oct. 2013, while I kept taking the car back again and again to solve this "known problem with 3.8 engines" (which they obviously did not know) - it all seems to confirm that these "warm bodies" are learning car repair without any apprenticeship or general information that all techs should know...learning solely on my (and other customers') cars as practice.

For those members who apparently don't carefully read posts for the details, but maybe rather for opportunities to vomit their displaced "road rage" or something of the sort, I stated quite clearly in my post that my serpentine belt did not in fact break. It had stretched and become slippery from two years of a slow drip of coolant from the plastic coolant elbow (confirmed by another veteran Buick mechanic, who also said this should have been a top priority replacement when I first brought the car in with the antifreeze odor issue). This has been confirmed by my local Buick dealership as well (which is fortunately pretty good in this town).

 

[Sal Collaziano]

Are you serious? The mechanic is responsible for the failure? Your question is ludicrous. It would have been nice if the coolant elbow was leaking enough the guy was able to find it when you brought it in, that isn't always the case. I'm also skeptical the leak caused the belt to fail. I've seen lots of coolant leaks cause a belt to slip enough to make noise never seen one cause a belt to break. Oil leaks maybe, coolant never. Your post sounds like a petulant child upset because a mechanical thing broke and you have to pay for the repairs. When you need tires next time is it going to be the mechanics fault because you asked him to look at them once or twice? Is he at fault for the vehicle needing an oil change? He did it last time right? Same logic 😉 $265 to replace the elbow and the belt is a pretty decent price. My guess is all he charged for the belt was for the part, no labor. Suck it up and live with it. Cars break, it happens.

I realize you're a mechanic but I don't see the reason to take SmoothRide's complaint so personally. I agree that mechanics aren't always going to find every issue - especially small ones. But the big picture here is that a customer had expressed concern about a coolant leak potentially causing future mechanical problems on numerous occasions - and that leak eventually did lead to a mechanical problem and it could have been a catastrophic one. I bet YOU would have found that leak. If YOU smelled antifreeze - would you have ignored it? Assumed it was a burnt plastic bag? Perhaps you're just overlooking the fact that SmoothRide never said the belt broke. It slipped off because of the coolant leak...

 

[Benzadmiral]

SmoothRide wrote, "Since the tech staff at my once A+ service shop - which used to be mostly mature veteran mechanics who could "nail" my problems immediately - is now mostly new guys who seem anywhere from 18 to 21 years old - kids - kids who even managed to carelessly break several of the plastic vanes in my cabin intake cowl when I just asked them to clear the intake area of debris. I didn't complain - just super-glued the vanes back together. But now I see that should have been a sign to move on."

+1 on that. I've been going to a respected independent mechanic here for some 13 years; he's always tried to save me money, whether it was on Mercedes or Buicks. His brother is one of the mechanics, and his officially retired father keeps busy for the shop, picking up parts and running customers to work. But the owner is my age, i.e., not far from official retirement age. I don't know what will happen if, and when, he decides to throw it all in. Maybe his brother, who is younger, will carry on.

If you have a good Buick dealer in your town, be glad, and be sure to tell other Buick and GM owners about the place. Mine is called Crown Buick, and they've never tried to upsell me on something and have honored warranties without question. And the Park Avenue I bought from them, the Regal's predecessor, was a solid buy as well.

 

[CarbonBlackCXS]

^ Its getting like that in many trades, not just automotive. Mechanics, plumbers, carpenters, you name it. Those getting out of school don't seem interested in getting their hands dirty. When my own son graduated I encouraged him to get into a trade knowing trades people will be more and more in demand as the older ones retire. He's now a second year apprentice working full time and then some because there's a demand for trades people.

 

[douger]

^ Its getting like that in many trades, not just automotive. Mechanics, plumbers, carpenters, you name it. Those getting out of school don't seem interested in getting their hands dirty. When my own son graduated I encouraged him to get into a trade knowing trades people will be more and more in demand as the older ones retire. He's now a second year apprentice working full time and then some because there's a demand for trades people.

It'd be nice if there were a proper apprenticeship program in automotive technology. Kids will come out of a school that took 15K or more of their money... barely knowing lefty loosie righty tightie... and dealerships will pair them up with a more senior tech for maybe a year if they're lucky. Then they're on their own in the flat rate jungle. As you can imagine, turning out competent techs is a crap shoot most dealers don't win. In the meantime, they're screwing up customer cars trying to learn.

 

[CarbonBlackCXS]

It'd be nice if there were a proper apprenticeship program in automotive technology. Kids will come out of a school that took 15K or more of their money... barely knowing lefty loosie righty tightie... and dealerships will pair them up with a more senior tech for maybe a year if they're lucky. Then they're on their own in the flat rate jungle. As you can imagine, turning out competent techs is a crap shoot most dealers don't win. In the meantime, they're screwing up customer cars trying to learn.

I'm not familiar with the automotive apprenticeship program in the US or Canada or how long it takes to get a journeyman ticket. If what you say is generally true then those dealer principles are missing a huge investment opportunity to earn competent long term employees.

 

[douger]

I'm not familiar with the automotive apprenticeship program in the US or Canada or how long it takes to get a journeyman ticket. If what you say is generally true then those dealer principles are missing a huge investment opportunity to earn competent long term employees.

Unless it's a union dealership... extremely rare... there is no formal apprenticeship program. Dealership management takes a short sighted approach to apprenticing kids. They see the expense of keeping a tech on salary while they learn and fear their investment will walk when the apprenticeship is over. In the meantime, they pay for them to screw up customers' cars, then complain about how hard it is to find techs.

Baffling.

 

[CarbonBlackCXS]

Unless it's a union dealership... extremely rare... there is no formal apprenticeship program. Dealership management takes a short sighted approach to apprenticing kids. They see the expense of keeping a tech on salary while they learn and fear their investment will walk when the apprenticeship is over. In the meantime, they pay for them to screw up customers' cars, then complain about how hard it is to find techs.

Baffling.

I got curious and looked up how apprenticeship training works here. For an Automotive Service Technician the apprenticeship program is pretty much the same as it is for many other trades.; 4 years (four 12-month periods) including a minimum of 1500 hours of on-the-job training and 8 weeks of technical training each year (at a trade school). Once completed they can apply to write the Interprovincial Exam and, if successful, be granted a Red Seal under the Interprovincial Standards Red Seal Program. The Red Seal is recognized throughout most of Canada. So apparently quite a bit different here than in the US.

 

[SmoothRide]

Carbon, I think I'm going to tow my LaCrosse to Alberta for its next maintenance. Is Calgary far enough? I'd like to stop over in Banff and soak away my recent stress. I'll be sure to relabel it as an "Allure" using stick-on chrome letters from my local auto store, as I don't want to present my car in Canada as a "Buick Jackoff"! 😉 (As "LaCrosse" is rather recent French-Canadian slang with that meaning.)

But as a follow-up to my sad disappointment in what has happened to my once A+ auto repair shop - they have been telling me for these past two years that the slightly oily spots that have been consistently staining my driveway are leakage from my steering assembly, and that this would eventually require an expensive replacement of the whole assembly. More lies, I'm afraid. Since the old plastic coolant elbow has been replaced with a metal one, following my great upset that they have not heeded my requests to stop the antifreeze odor and rapid coolant loss, there has been no spotting on my driveway whatsoever. Very interesting. I consider myself fortunate, despite the stress...for now.

 

[CarbonBlackCXS]

Yeah I'm well aware why the car was relabeled the Allure but the people of Quebec must have gotten over it because the 2nd gen is called the LaCrosse. But I suspect no one really cared about the name anyway and the label was more about corporate ignorance than anything else.

As for Banff yes there are hot springs there. The Banff townsite is definitely a tourist trap so I'm not so sure it would be a good place to relieve stress but that's just me. I love travelling in the mountains though. That's my relief valve. Good luck with your car. Hopefully you can find a trustworthy shop.