GMRedline's Intro Thread

[GMRedline]

Hello gentlemen.

I thought I would introduce myself as a new owner of a 2012 Regal Turbo. I purchased it two weeks ago. It is Stormy Grey Metallic and has the Turbo Premium II package.

A few of you might know me from redlineforums.com and cobaltss.net. I see some similar handles. I guess my "story" is that I am a moderator on RLFs and big into E85. I have played around with a lot of different setups on my Redline and it has been fun. But it was time for me to move on.

I have been eyeing up the new Buick Regal since it was first rumored to be released. Since GM basically designed the Regal for its sport compact crowd who was getting older and wanted something more refined, it was love at first site. Since 2011 I have resisted the itch to go test drive the new Regal as an attempt to delay the inevitable. But a few weeks ago I scratched my itch and you guys know the rest... 🙂

So here are my babies.

Completely stock for now.

Major stuff is E85, 2.7" pulley, Harrop 1320 TVS, RSFS, ZZP exhaust, Trifecta GMS3 Nitrous kit w/ 50 shot, ect.

I was going to trade in my RL for the Regal but my brother wants to buy my RL. I am going to give him till spring so the RL will not be going anywhere any time soon. I still need to hit the dyno to see the results of this 2.7" pulley. I made 329whp/290wtq with a 2.9" pulley in 2009. I am also the only person who has proven to make over 300whp on and LSJ with an M62 on a completely stock long block. I did 303/273 in case any cared.

My plan for the Regal is tune it. Then maybe an intake and maybe some exhaust work. I am well versed in tuning LSJs but I yet to tune an LNF/LHU. HP Tuners support for the LHU is still a couple of months away. It sounds silly but the primary reason I want an intake is so I can hear the turbo spool. The factory intake looks pretty restrictive so it can't hurt.

I have not been really impressed with some of the custom exhaust setups I have heard on this forum. Anyone who has ever built an exhaust for a 4 banger knows it is extremely difficult to do. Lucky for us, we have the turbo to dampen and break up the exhaust pulses but a few of the setups I have heard sound poor.

IF I tackle the exhaust I will probably buy ZZP's downpipe and then make a custom 3" back the Y and then two decent Magnaflow or Stainless works 2.5" mufflers should take care of the job.

Well I just wanted to introduce myself and say hi. I look forward to learning more about this platform and getting to know you guys. I live in North East WI and I am a huge Packer fan!

🙂

 

[woodshop2300]

Welcome!

South West WI here.
Go Packers as well.

I also got the Regal because it has E85 support.
I've never had an E85 car before, but i have to say it does well on the stuff.
I personally think its a bit more peppy on E85, and it only looses like 4mpg running on it. 26 down to 22 in my normal running around.

 

[longislander]

Congrats on the new Regal. That color is SMOKY Gray. My GS is the same color 🙂

 

[GMRedline]

Welcome!

South West WI here.
Go Packers as well.

I also got the Regal because it has E85 support.
I've never had an E85 car before, but i have to say it does well on the stuff.
I personally think its a bit more peppy on E85, and it only looses like 4mpg running on it. 26 down to 22 in my normal running around.

E85 has been amazing for my old platform. E85 is ~105 octane so its like running race for less the price of 87 octane. Some people will complain about the fuel economy but when you throw MPG out the door and consider cost per mile or MP$, E85 can be even cheaper to run depending on the supplier.

I was able to tune in 10% more HP on my Redline by switching fuels and adding timing.

The dealership had a GS is the same exact color but I went with the regular turbo for the flex fuel support.

A GS could run E85, E10, E47, ect but I would have to retune the car every time I switched blends. The flex fuel option will allow me run any blend I like without changing tunes. I also don't have to worry about the seasonal blend changes where E85 gets changed to E70.

Congrats on the new Regal. That color is SMOKY Gray. My GS is the same color 🙂

Thanks. The ION had a Storm Gray color so I keep getting them mixed up. 🙂 I really like the exterior styling of the GS. There is a good chance I will change out the front fascia one day.

 

[MikeC725]

Welcome aboard!

 

[MrMarty51]

Nice Cars and Welcome aboard,from Eastern Montana.

 

[GMRedline]

So I fired off an email to Trifecta to get some more info on his Regal tunes. Here is good stock vs tuned dyno graph I found.

I would be happy with a little more.

 

[DonRican]

E85 has been amazing for my old platform. E85 is ~105 octane so its like running race for less the price of 87 octane. Some people will complain about the fuel economy but when you throw MPG out the door and consider cost per mile or MP$, E85 can be even cheaper to run depending on the supplier.

I was able to tune in 10% more HP on my Redline by switching fuels and adding timing.

The dealership had a GS is the same exact color but I went with the regular turbo for the flex fuel support.

A GS could run E85, E10, E47, ect but I would have to retune the car every time I switched blends. The flex fuel option will allow me run any blend I like without changing tunes. I also don't have to worry about the seasonal blend changes where E85 gets changed to E70.



Thanks. The ION had a Storm Gray color so I keep getting them mixed up. 🙂 I really like the exterior styling of the GS. There is a good chance I will change out the front fascia one day.

Can you provide evidence that all the GS needs is a tune to run E85. It just doesn't make sense to me. Why wouldn't they simply make the GS E85 compatible out the box if it were that simple. Not saying you aren't right but I've concluded another reason why the GS can't use E85 and I could be wrong.

 

[synolimit]

So I fired off an email to Trifecta to get some more info on his Regal tunes. Here is good stock vs tuned dyno graph I found.

I would be happy with a little more.

That's the regal turbo. The GS made a little less but with dynos every day can show a little different results. Theoretically they should be dead even but I believe the trannys are different which could add or take away weight, the GS has bigger heavier rotors, and the 20's if used in the tuning will be heavier again. All of which can free up or use HP.

 

[synolimit]

Can you provide evidence that all the GS needs is a tune to run E85. It just doesn't make sense to me. Why wouldn't they simply make the GS E85 compatible out the box if it were that simple. Not saying you aren't right but I've concluded another reason why the GS can't use E85 and I could be wrong.

It doesn't have an alcohol sensor. Without it the car doesn't know it's running a fuel that burns 30% faster. If you try running it at your boost and timing you can gernade the motor from running insanely lean!! The turbo can run it because its not running the timing or boost of the GS (hense the 50hp less). The GS can't run it because the fuel pump or injectors are not big enough to flow 30% over what they were made to do on top of adding more boost and fuel over stock that the trifecta tune runs. You can run e85 on a tuned car becuase the tune adds the changes needed for the fuel but you won't be running as much timing or boost of a 93 GS car.

Basically you have two options. Run 93 and as much timing and boost as the turbo, motor, tranny, injectors etc will allow, or run e85 and turn all those numbers way down so you don't run out of fuel. Personally I'd stick with 93. You spend less on gas, get better mpg by 30%, and don't have to worry about changes in % that E goes through throughout the year. If like on other cars we could add huge fuel pumps and 1000+ cc/min fuel injectors than it wouldn't be a problem. But then you risk the motor and tranny.

 

[synolimit]

I was able to tune in 10% more HP on my Redline by switching fuels and adding timing

I think 2psi had a lot to do with that!

 

[hitman1970]

Congrats and welcome.

 

[DonRican]

It doesn't have an alcohol sensor. Without it the car doesn't know it's running a fuel that burns 30% faster. If you try running it at your boost and timing you can gernade the motor from running insanely lean!! The turbo can run it because its not running the timing or boost of the GS (hense the 50hp less). The GS can't run it because the fuel pump or injectors are not big enough to flow 30% over what they were made to do on top of adding more boost and fuel over stock that the trifecta tune runs. You can run e85 on a tuned car becuase the tune adds the changes needed for the fuel but you won't be running as much timing or boost of a 93 GS car.

Basically you have two options. Run 93 and as much timing and boost as the turbo, motor, tranny, injectors etc will allow, or run e85 and turn all those numbers way down so you don't run out of fuel. Personally I'd stick with 93. You spend less on gas, get better mpg by 30%, and don't have to worry about changes in % that E goes through throughout the year. If like on other cars we could add huge fuel pumps and 1000+ cc/min fuel injectors than it wouldn't be a problem. But then you risk the motor and tranny.

I agree, Not having an alcohol sensor may be the result of GM not wanting to pay for something that won't work anyway. If the injectors/fuel pump can't handle the extra fuel demand and leave a reasonable cushion then that might be why GM left the sensor and E85 tune out. That makes more sense to me than leaving the sensor and tune out for an unknown reason. I also would need evidence that it doesn't have a sensor since I was told by Buick the cars are the same except for tune, handling and GS interior/bodywork. But even if it doesn't have a sensor it doesn't prove anything for the reasons I described.

Why wouldn't they just increase fuel pump and injector specs? Because it would cost a lot more than just saying you can't use E85 to the few that would buy a GS. That also makes logical sense tot me.

The real question is why a spokesmen from Buick engineering doesn't clear this up for us. 🙂

 

[GMRedline]

It doesn't have an alcohol sensor.

Exactly.

I think 2psi had a lot to do with that!

A little. I was able to pulley down from a 3.1" pulley to a 2.9". But the real difference is the timing.

With the 3.1" pulley and 93 octane I could only run 19* peak timing and I had to slowly ramp it to avoid KR.

With the 2.9" pulley and E85 I could ramp the timing hard which creates a much better TQ curve and more peak HP. I can run 25* of timing from 4600rpms to redline. I would never be able to do that on 93.

Congrats and welcome.

Thanks!

I also would need evidence that it doesn't have a sensor since I was told by Buick the cars are the same except for tune, handling and GS interior/bodywork. But even if it doesn't have a sensor it doesn't prove anything for the reasons I described.

http://shop.zzperformance.com/store/p/1004-LHU-Regal-High-Flow-Intake.aspx

"The standard Turbo model has a fuel computer that needs to be relocated for the intake to be installed, this intake kit comes with the necessary bracket to do this. The "GS" model does not need this bracket, that is why the "GS" option is cheaper."

Why wouldn't they just increase fuel pump and injector specs? Because it would cost a lot more than just saying you can't use E85 to the few that would buy a GS. That also makes logical sense tot me.

It't not that simple. There are no "upgrades" for the Direct Injection injectors. And the LHU uses two fuel pumps. The first is in the fuel tank and works like most Fuel Injection fuel pumps which runs around 58psi. The second is a mechanical fuel pump that get spun by the intake cam which cranks up the Fuel Pressure over 2000psi. Increasing the flow or fuel pressure on the first pump makes very little difference on the overall supply.

ZZP makes cams with a larger fuel lob which can increase the FP for the Direct Injection injectors.

http://shop.zzperformance.com/store/p/701-LNF-Stage-1-Cams.aspx

^There is a lot good info on that page. It's worth a read so you understand how the fuel system in the Regal works.

Trifecta has also found a way to increase fuel supply for those running E85 by starting the fuel delivery sooner. So there are options out there for people who want to run E85 and make huge HP.

This engine can still make a lot of HP running E85 without any additional mods. Yes it can "Max Out" the fuel system but that will be way beyond the HP level that most people will want to run anyway.

 

[DonRican]

Then there are more than just fuel pressure concerns. To run E85 you need a cam to increase fuel pressure and a computer to calculate the E85/gas mix. Or how else will the engine know how much e85 to regular gas percentage you have. Change the cam and not add the computer and wouldn't the car run rich? Why wouldn't the car think it still has 2000 PSI at the injector. Add just the computer and you still can't get the fuel you need. 2000 PSI at the the pin head needle of the injector doesn't seem to be enough.

I totally agree there is more power to be had with this engine. The question is how to get there safely and spend your money wisely getting there.

Your explanation makes logical sense. If you need a different cam then that's a cost Buick may not have wanted to add. It then doesn't need the fuel computer.

 

[GMRedline]

Then there are more than just fuel pressure concerns. To run E85 you need a cam to increase fuel pressure and a computer to calculate the E85/gas mix. Or how else will the engine know how much e85 to regular gas percentage you have. Change the cam and not add the computer and wouldn't the car run rich? Why wouldn't the car think it still has 2000 PSI at the injector. Add just the computer and you still can't get the fuel you need. 2000 PSI at the the pin head needle of the injector doesn't seem to be enough.

A tune would be required to run the ZZP Stage 1 cam. The only way a GS would know the ethanol % of the fuel is by calibrating to MAF to the specific %. If the Maf is calibrated to E10, that is the only fuel you can run. If the Maf is calibrated to E85, then the car can only run E85.

I totally agree there is more power to be had with this engine. The question is how to get there safely and spend your money wisely getting there.

Your explanation makes logical sense. If you need a different cam then that's a cost Buick may not have wanted to add. It then doesn't need the fuel computer.

You don't NEED to have an aftermarket cam to run E85. ZZP makes that cam for people who want to run E85 and make HUGE horse power. You can still make a lot of hp on this engine with E85 and without the cam. It all depends on how much boost you want to run. I should also add that ZZP makes a "5th injector" setup for the LNF which adds an additional injector to supply more fuel when needed.

http://shop.zzperformance.com/store/p/1025-LNF5-Fifth-Injector-Controller.aspx

It is not a Direct Injection injector. This one runs off a base FP of 58psi.

I am going to share some general information about how much HP each setup is capable of based off of the LNF. This is the most complete list of dyno graph you will find on LSJ/LNF ecotecs.

http://www.cobaltss.net/forums/dyno-results-170/new-official-dyno-thread-2012-a-272372/

If you look in "2.0 T/C - K04 Power!!" That is the stock turbo section. Look at the guys at the top of that list.

1. 09whteSSpssssh 366.5whp, 445wtq Verified DYNOmite CP/CD/DP/E/I/IC/E47/HPT Only Graph 1 Graph 2
2. Frogstofall, 362whp, 376wtq, Verified Dynojet, I/DP/T/GM1/IC/CP/E47, Graph
3. raver0789 359whp, 408wtq Dynojet I/CP/IC/DP/CB/E47 Graph
4. FF_ace 351whp, 393wtq Verified Dynojet CAI/CP/IC/DP/CD/E/WI/E85/T Graph
5. Cavalierssr 350whp, 439wtq Verfied Dynojet I/DP/CD/CP/MD/T/E85 Graph
6. mongorat427, 349whp, 363wyq, Verified Dynojet, I/E/CP/IC/T, Graph
7. BYT*SS*TURBO 347whp, 414wtq Verified Dynojet, DP/CD/CP/I/T/IC Graph
8. 2010SS 346whp, 426wtq Verified Dynojet DP/IC/I/CP/E85/BYT Tune Graph

6 out of the top 8 guys are running some sort of higher ethanol blend. All of them are doing it without ZZP's cams.

Now if you look at the "2.0 T/C - All Out POWER POTENTIAL!!" Matt M made over 600whp with an LNF, E85, ZZP Cams, and an aftermarket turbo.

So the turbo will max out around the same point as the fuel system when running E85.

Looking at the numbers above, its pretty easy to see that the LNF with E85 maxes out around 350whp and 400wtq. The guys who make more HP then that are running a E47 blend which requires less fuel. They are able to make around 360whp.

So the point that E85 maxes out the fuel system is still way beyond what owners of a Regal are going to run.

 

[synolimit]

Exactly.



A little. I was able to pulley down from a 3.1" pulley to a 2.9". But the real difference is the timing.

With the 3.1" pulley and 93 octane I could only run 19* peak timing and I had to slowly ramp it to avoid KR.

With the 2.9" pulley and E85 I could ramp the timing hard which creates a much better TQ curve and more peak HP. I can run 25* of timing from 4600rpms to redline. I would never be able to do that on 93.

I don't mean to rip on that tune but that's the most horribly numbers I've ever seen! From what I've experienced with small factory turbos I've seen averages of 10hp per 1 psi and close to 10hp from 1* of timing, larger turbos get even higher averages. You went up 2.11psi and 6* of timing yet only increased 30/33. Not to mention E85 alone on most cars averages 10% increase from no boost or timing changes at all! That's because e85 burns cooler and acts like nitrous if you will. Then this pulley you talk about which seemed to do nothing.

Again please don't take this the wrong way but that's a hell of a lot of upgrading, boost, timing, E etc for an extremely low increase in power. Something does not add up.

 

[GMRedline]

I don't mean to rip on that tune but that's the most horribly numbers I've ever seen! From what I've experienced with small factory turbos I've seen averages of 10hp per 1 psi and close to 10hp from 1* of timing, larger turbos get even higher averages. You went up 2.11psi and 6* of timing yet only increased 30/33. Not to mention E85 alone on most cars averages 10% increase from no boost or timing changes at all! That's because e85 burns cooler and acts like nitrous if you will. Then this pulley you talk about which seemed to do nothing.

Again please don't take this the wrong way but that's a hell of a lot of upgrading, boost, timing, E etc for an extremely low increase in power. Something does not add up.

That example was on a supercharged car. They are totally different beasts. The "general" rule for the LSJ (Supercharged 2.0L ecotec) is about +5hp per added degree of timing with diminishing returns over ~23*. And just adding boost to a supercharged engine does not always increase HP. Boost is a measure of restriction. More restriction is not always better. When you pulley down on a supercharged car it creates more parasitic HP loss because the engine has to spin the supercharger faster and under more pressure and more heat. Depending on the application, a supercharger can cause between 35-50bhp loss just spinning it under boost.

🙂

 

[zinner]

He has a M62 Eaton Supercharger on the redline.

 

[zinner]

Hey GMRedline, I had an O5 Cobalt SS/SC and was a founding member/moderator of CobaltSS.net. I also ran tuners.cobaltss.org for a while, but lost interest when I sold the cobalt.