Distributor Retards Itself

[Jackhammer0312]

Wanted to start a new thread from my old one since the car is running good now, well aside from what's in the title.

I have a 1971 Buick Skylark with a 350 V8. Changed the timing to 22*BTDC on Saturday. Yesterday I went to a job site which is around a 45min drive for me and noticed it was acting weird when I was at a stop and just didn't feel right. Left my indicators on when I got there and needed a jump to get to a gas station a mile down the road. Once at the gas station I needed another jump, but the car took so long to start. After that I pulled into a parking spot to set my GPS, went to reverse and stalled. Did that two more times, needing a jump each time, before I let the engine idle for about 6mins to warm up, then went home. Each time I had to jump it it took a long time to start.

Once I got home I started messing with stuff trying to see why it started running so rough. Found out with a timing light that my distributor had retarded itself 4*! Went from 22*BTDC to 18! Now my balancer could be off, but the engine for some reason loves 22-25*. Anything below that and it starts having problems when in gear at a stop and stalls very easily when not fully warmed up.

Now my main question is: can i fix this or should I get a new distributor? If so, do I go with electronic ignition (ie pertronix) or points? My current distributor is points and I don't mind messing with it and maintaining it.

Also anything carb related and fuel delivery related is completely fine, so I know it 100% has nothing to do with that.

Any and all help is greatly appreciated. I'd rather not change the timing every 4 days!

 

[MelsRegal]

Wanted to start a new thread from my old one since the car is running good now, well aside from what's in the title.

I have a 1971 Buick Skylark with a 350 V8. Changed the timing to 22*BTDC on Saturday. Yesterday I went to a job site which is around a 45min drive for me and noticed it was acting weird when I was at a stop and just didn't feel right. Left my indicators on when I got there and needed a jump to get to a gas station a mile down the road. Once at the gas station I needed another jump, but the car took so long to start. After that I pulled into a parking spot to set my GPS, went to reverse and stalled. Did that two more times, needing a jump each time, before I let the engine idle for about 6mins to warm up, then went home. Each time I had to jump it it took a long time to start.

Once I got home I started messing with stuff trying to see why it started running so rough. Found out with a timing light that my distributor had retarded itself 4*! Went from 22*BTDC to 18! Now my balancer could be off, but the engine for some reason loves 22-25*. Anything below that and it starts having problems when in gear at a stop and stalls very easily when not fully warmed up.

Now my main question is: can i fix this or should I get a new distributor? If so, do I go with electronic ignition (ie pertronix) or points? My current distributor is points and I don't mind messing with it and maintaining it.

Also anything carb related and fuel delivery related is completely fine, so I know it 100% has nothing to do with that.

Any and all help is greatly appreciated. I'd rather not change the timing every 4 days!

Something is very wrong if you are setting timing at 22 BTDC on a stock 71 350.
Just to be clear you are disconnecting the vacuum advance and the idle speed is below 1,000 rpm?
You are setting the dwell before setting the timing?
I would definitely determine if the outer ring on the balancer has slipped. If you need instructions, just ask.

 

[Jackhammer0312]

Something is very wrong if you are setting timing at 22 BTDC on a stock 71 350.
Just to be clear you are disconnecting the vacuum advance and the idle speed is below 1,000 rpm?
You are setting the dwell before setting the timing?
I would definitely determine if the outer ring on the balancer has slipped. If you need instructions, just ask.

Yes, idle speed is around 600rpm, Vacuum advance disconnected and plugged at carb, and in gear when I set timing. I haven't touched the dwell at all since it hasn't changed at all (set it to 31 using dwell meter).

 

[MelsRegal]

Yes, idle speed is around 600rpm, Vacuum advance disconnected and plugged at carb, and in gear when I set timing. I haven't touched the dwell at all since it hasn't changed at all (set it to 31 using dwell meter).

OK, then time to check the balancer for accuracy.

 

[Jackhammer0312]

OK, then time to check the balancer for accuracy.

For that do I just need to see if piston 1 hits TDC at the 0* mark on the timing tab?

 

[MelsRegal]

For that do I just need to see if piston 1 hits TDC at the 0* mark on the timing tab?

basically yes. you insert a piston stop in cylinder 1 turn the engine over by hand till it stops, mark on the balancer where the zero on the tab is located, turn the engine over in the opposite direction by hand and again mark where the zero on the tab is located, The midpoint between the two is TDC. Removing all plugs will make it easier to turn. You can find more details online.

 

[Jackhammer0312]

basically yes. you insert a piston stop in cylinder 1 turn the engine over by hand till it stops, mark on the balancer where the zero on the tab is located, turn the engine over in the opposite direction by hand and again mark where the zero on the tab is located, The midpoint between the two is TDC. Removing all plugs will make it easier to turn. You can find more details online.

Ah okay, didn't know to do that. Thanks! Also what about my distributor retarding itself? Should I start looking into getting a new distributor too? Pertronix is interesting me but I hear very mixed things about it, like people being fine with their unit for like 7 years and other people having theirs be bad right out of the box.

 

[MelsRegal]

Ah okay, didn't know to do that. Thanks! Also what about my distributor retarding itself? Should I start looking into getting a new distributor too? Pertronix is interesting me but I hear very mixed things about it, like people being fine with their unit for like 7 years and other people having theirs be bad right out of the box.

A loose hold down bolt can cause that. Also you may have lots of vertical play on the distributor mains shaft from age. Should be .007 but even brand new they rarely were that tight. I have used a Mallory/Accel unit for many decades in two different cars. Original one lasted about 30 years. Points can strand you also if they burn or condenser fails but easier to change on the side of the road.

 

[Jackhammer0312]

A loose hold down bolt can cause that. Also you may have lots of vertical play on the distributor mains shaft from age. Should be .007 but even brand new they rarely were that tight. I have used a Mallory/Accel unit for many decades in two different cars. Original one lasted about 30 years. Points can strand you also if they burn or condenser fails but easier to change on the side of the road.

Yesterday when I got home and when I changed the timing Saturday I made to to crank the hold down tight so I know for a fact that not loose. Could excessive play just make it slowly retard? Also yeah I read about that too. With these old vehicles everything is usually real easy to swap out and an electronic distributor eliminates one of the things that could easily be swapped in a pinch.

 

[ulycyc]

Assuming you have a stock distributor, pull off the rotor and make sure the advance weights and two springs are in place and move freely by hand. Put a spot of white grease under the weights on the Teflon rubbing pads. Sound like they are sticking.

 

[Jackhammer0312]

Assuming you have a stock distributor, pull off the rotor and make sure the advance weights and two springs are in place and move freely by hand. Put a spot of white grease under the weights on the Teflon rubbing pads. Sound like they are sticking.

Will do, thanks!

 

[Jackhammer0312]

Alright so distributor has ever so slightly retarded itself by a little over a degree since I last posted, so went ahead and used my car parts money to get a new distributor, wires, and coil and all that should be here by Tuesday (i wanted to upgrade to a pertronix ignitor 3 distributor and found one on summit 100 bucks cheaper than anywhere else).

Balancer was correct with the timing marks, but i think I'm an idiot when it came to reading timing with the timing light... this whole time I've been setting what degrees I want on the light, pointing it at the timing marks and balancer, and moving the distributor the mark on the balancer hit 0*. I need to match the balancer mark up with the degree i set the light to on the timing mark tab don't I....

Also, new kickdown cable came since mine was cut/sheared at the pedal, but I can't figure out how to adjust it and it doesn't have any sort of nut or anything on it that other people are mentioning in other posts. Just this crimped on retainer thing.

 

[MelsRegal]

Ok, dial back timing light should be set to zero unless you are modifying the advance curve.
The cable is adjusted at the carburetor with engine off, locking clip released, throttle held wide open, locking clip closed.

 

[Jackhammer0312]

Ok, dial back timing light should be set to zero unless you are modifying the advance curve.
The cable is adjusted at the carburetor with engine off, locking clip released, throttle held wide open, locking clip closed.

I'm guessing a dial back timing light is not the same as the digital ones with the small screen? Because I have a digital one with a small screen.

The cable coming out of the firewall into the interior is the 1st picture of my previous post and I've read people using chevy universal detent cables in Skylarks hooked to their throttle at the carb and others using their original cable hooked to the gas pedal since it has a place for the throttle and kickdown cables. Also do you have a picture of the locking clip you're talking about? I have nothing on my original cable since it sheared/broke where it would've attached to the pedal.

If my new cable is to go to the throttle at the carb and not the pedal, where do I attach it?

 

[MelsRegal]

I assumed you have a th350 transmission which would have two cables connected to the carburetor throttle linkage, one of them goes to transmission to activate the kickdown. The adjustment is done at the carburetor end.

 

[Jackhammer0312]

I assumed you have a th350 transmission which would have two cables connected to the carburetor throttle linkage, one of them goes to transmission to activate the kickdown. The adjustment is done at the carburetor end.

Looks like I'm going to have to jiggy-rig something then, luckily i am no stranger to that

 

[LARRY70GS]

No, the Buick cable goes to the gas pedal. The end has a rod, and a sliding clip. That is the wrong cable for the Buick. To adjust the cable, you want the cable to reach full travel at Wide Open Throttle. The procedure is to move the clip to the beginning of the rod. Then floor the gas pedal slowly. The clip slides on the rod and self adjusts.




This is a thread I started on v8buick about optimizing your ignition timing.

Power Timing your Buick V8

I thought I would try and compose this post to answer timing questions I see all the time on this BB. I see alot of questions about what initial...

www.v8buick.com

There seems to be a lot of confusion regarding dial back timing lights and how to use them. A dial back light is used to visually retard the balancer mark at the viewing position. When you turn the dial it moves the mark. The idea is to dial the mark back to the 0 on the timing tab. This can be done at any RPM including idle. It is particularly useful when it is difficult to read the timing tab degree markings because of grease or lack of contrast. If you can see the 0 on the tab, you can use light to determine the timing. As an example, at idle, point the light at the balancer, and slowly turn the dial until the balancer mark lines up with the 0 on the timing tab. Then read your idle timing off the timing light dial. As mentioned, you can use this feature at any RPM. You can use it to graph your timing curve. Have an assistant rev your engine to specific RPM's and dial back to 0 to determine your timing at each RPM. If you determine your timing at 1000, 1500, 2000, 2500, 3000 RPM, you can use the results to make a graph of timing vs. RPM.

To use the dial back to set total timing, set the dial on the timing light for the total timing you want to set. When the balancer mark is even with the 0 on the tab, the timing will be what the dial is set to. In order to set total timing, you'll need to get the distributor weights to move all the way out. Most stock springs will not allow that until 4000 or more RPM. If you use the lightest springs you can find, you can get the weights to move all the way out at a much lower RPM. When using this method, realize that at idle speed, the balancer mark will appear below the 0 on the timing tab. As you rev the engine, the mark will move upwards. The mark will stop moving upwards at some RPM depending on spring tension. If the mark stops moving and is still below the 0, it indicates that the timing is retarded from what you have set at the dial. You need to advance the distributor position by loosening the hold down and turning the distributor counter clockwise. If the mark moves above the 0, it means that the timing is more advanced that what the dial is set to. You need to move the distributor in a clockwise direction to retard the timing. You want the balancer mark to be lined up with the 0 on the tab, when it stops moving upward, so that the total timing is what you set on the dial of the timing light. It may take you several tries to get it exactly where you need it. Move the distributor in small increments. Remember, the distributor is driven at 1/2 crank speed, so 1* of distributor rotation will equal 2* at the crank. Hope that explains it effectively. This is all done with the vacuum advance disconnected and plugged.

 

[Jackhammer0312]

No, the Buick cable goes to the gas pedal. The end has a rod, and a sliding clip. That is the wrong cable for the Buick. To adjust the cable, you want the cable to reach full travel at Wide Open Throttle. The procedure is to move the clip to the beginning of the rod. Then floor the gas pedal slowly. The clip slides on the rod and self adjusts.

View attachment 48912
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This is a thread I started on v8buick about optimizing your ignition timing.

Power Timing your Buick V8

I thought I would try and compose this post to answer timing questions I see all the time on this BB. I see alot of questions about what initial...

www.v8buick.com

There seems to be a lot of confusion regarding dial back timing lights and how to use them. A dial back light is used to visually retard the balancer mark at the viewing position. When you turn the dial it moves the mark. The idea is to dial the mark back to the 0 on the timing tab. This can be done at any RPM including idle. It is particularly useful when it is difficult to read the timing tab degree markings because of grease or lack of contrast. If you can see the 0 on the tab, you can use light to determine the timing. As an example, at idle, point the light at the balancer, and slowly turn the dial until the balancer mark lines up with the 0 on the timing tab. Then read your idle timing off the timing light dial. As mentioned, you can use this feature at any RPM. You can use it to graph your timing curve. Have an assistant rev your engine to specific RPM's and dial back to 0 to determine your timing at each RPM. If you determine your timing at 1000, 1500, 2000, 2500, 3000 RPM, you can use the results to make a graph of timing vs. RPM.

To use the dial back to set total timing, set the dial on the timing light for the total timing you want to set. When the balancer mark is even with the 0 on the tab, the timing will be what the dial is set to. In order to set total timing, you'll need to get the distributor weights to move all the way out. Most stock springs will not allow that until 4000 or more RPM. If you use the lightest springs you can find, you can get the weights to move all the way out at a much lower RPM. When using this method, realize that at idle speed, the balancer mark will appear below the 0 on the timing tab. As you rev the engine, the mark will move upwards. The mark will stop moving upwards at some RPM depending on spring tension. If the mark stops moving and is still below the 0, it indicates that the timing is retarded from what you have set at the dial. You need to advance the distributor position by loosening the hold down and turning the distributor counter clockwise. If the mark moves above the 0, it means that the timing is more advanced that what the dial is set to. You need to move the distributor in a clockwise direction to retard the timing. You want the balancer mark to be lined up with the 0 on the tab, when it stops moving upward, so that the total timing is what you set on the dial of the timing light. It may take you several tries to get it exactly where you need it. Move the distributor in small increments. Remember, the distributor is driven at 1/2 crank speed, so 1* of distributor rotation will equal 2* at the crank. Hope that explains it effectively. This is all done with the vacuum advance disconnected and plugged.

Looks like I was doing one of thw things right! And thank you for this detailed explanation and forum link! I have a new distributor on the way and that comes with springs to get the total timing in at around 2500rpm so I definitely will do that.

About the cable though, where would I get the correct one? From what I've seen all of them look like the one I got.

 

[LARRY70GS]

Fuel System Accessories, 68-72 REPO KICK DOWN CABLE, TA_1260K | TAPerformance.com

https://www.opgi.com/drivetrain/transmissions/transmission-kickdown-cable-olds-th350/cable-transmission-kickdown-1969-72-olds-buick-th350-pedal-mount-C240419.html?

 

[Jackhammer0312]

Fuel System Accessories, 68-72 REPO KICK DOWN CABLE, TA_1260K | TAPerformance.com

https://www.opgi.com/drivetrain/transmissions/transmission-kickdown-cable-olds-th350/cable-transmission-kickdown-1969-72-olds-buick-th350-pedal-mount-C240419.html?

Do both of those come with the retainer clip and rod? The one on OPGI also looks like the one I got in the mail unless that picture is wrong.