05 camber out range both rear wheels

[dondee]

The rear wheels have negative camber and the tires show accelerated wear on the inside 1/4 of the tread.
Had alignment check and the mechanic said the bushings on both suspension control arms need to be replaced as well as some other parts.
The springs(moog) and shocks(monroe) were replaced about 3 years ago, but I only put about 3-4000 miles a year on the car so don't see how they could need to be replaced.
The leveling system seems to be working fine. It tests(runs) after starting the engine, I can load down the trunk and the system levels the rear.

Two questions:
What is the riding height measuring from ground to opening of fender well through the center of the wheel? (or a better way measure is acceptable)
Where can I find replacement bushings for the control arms?

Help is appreciated.

 

[century61]

The rear wheels have negative camber and the tires show accelerated wear on the inside 1/4 of the tread.
Had alignment check and the mechanic said the bushings on both suspension control arms need to be replaced as well as some other parts.
The springs(moog) and shocks(monroe) were replaced about 3 years ago, but I only put about 3-4000 miles a year on the car so don't see how they could need to be replaced.
The leveling system seems to be working fine. It tests(runs) after starting the engine, I can load down the trunk and the system levels the rear.

Two questions:
What is the riding height measuring from ground to opening of fender well through the center of the wheel? (or a better way measure is acceptable)
Where can I find replacement bushings for the control arms?

Help is appreciated.

Check rock auto. Might have to replace the control arms instead of just bushings. I have no idea about the ride height though. I guess I would measure ride height from ground to bottom of side panel above the tire.

 

[BuickGirlFromMars]

The rear wheels have negative camber and the tires show accelerated wear on the inside 1/4 of the tread.
Had alignment check and the mechanic said the bushings on both suspension control arms need to be replaced as well as some other parts.
The springs(moog) and shocks(monroe) were replaced about 3 years ago, but I only put about 3-4000 miles a year on the car so don't see how they could need to be replaced.
The leveling system seems to be working fine. It tests(runs) after starting the engine, I can load down the trunk and the system levels the rear.

Two questions:
What is the riding height measuring from ground to opening of fender well through the center of the wheel? (or a better way measure is acceptable)
Where can I find replacement bushings for the control arms?

Help is appreciated.

sounds like worn suspension
or improper ride control
if your car is not at trim height unloaded with the air system, then there is a problem with something thats for sure.
PICS?


here is one of the possible fixes depending on what you show us

 

[2007LucerneCXL]

BGFM is correct on the shims for camber alignment as the rear suspension only offers toe adjustment. Most shops are either not aware, know about them or want to install the shims. Basically the alignment is done, rear camber measured and degree is noted, correction shim determined, rear hubs removed and shims installed.

A simple way to check if the vehicle is operating level is to measure the distance of the rocker panel behind the front tire and in front of the rear tire. The alignment for camber is dependent on the height sensor and calibration along with shocks and springs in proper condition. If lower control arm is worn it requires a good amount of the rear suspension removed to install just a FYI.

 

[BuickGirlFromMars]

in the experience of a lot of people, by now most of these cars have sagging rear springs. not everyone but a good amount. The shocks arent often OE by now either, but again thats not a guarantee lol.

if the control arms are loose, sure, I would say you need bushings. but your mileage tells me that shouldnt be the case.

thats why I say what does it look like because if you send a picture and I see a sagged rear, then you shouldnt shim it because when its corrected youll be way off lol

 

[2007LucerneCXL]

Great photo of what is involved getting to the bolts, yep dropping the whole suspension.

 

[lbear]

The rear wheels have negative camber and the tires show accelerated wear on the inside 1/4 of the tread.
Had alignment check and the mechanic said the bushings on both suspension control arms need to be replaced as well as some other parts.
The springs(moog) and shocks(monroe) were replaced about 3 years ago, but I only put about 3-4000 miles a year on the car so don't see how they could need to be replaced.
The leveling system seems to be working fine. It tests(runs) after starting the engine, I can load down the trunk and the system levels the rear.

Two questions:
What is the riding height measuring from ground to opening of fender well through the center of the wheel? (or a better way measure is acceptable)
Where can I find replacement bushings for the control arms?

Help is appreciated.

The rear control arm bushings are not that expensive ($13 per pair).
Amazon.com: Mevotech MK6580 Suspension Control Arm Bushing : Automotive
You would need 2 per side and they would have to be pressed into the lower control arm.



The PROBLEM is that unlike the front lower control arms, the rears are not easily removed. You have to drop the entire rear subframe to remove the lower control arms. GM did not think about future replacement and the 2 bolts holding the arms cannot be removed without removing the subframe assembly. As the bolts hit the gas tank and body of the car. So the subframe must be dropped. One has to remove the exhaust to drop the subframe.

I got quoted $1,400 to do that job so for now, I am not doing it. I am getting my own car lift installed in the fall in my garage. Once I get that, I will probably tackle that job myself.

 

[lbear]

View attachment 37589

if the control arms are loose, sure, I would say you need bushings. but your mileage tells me that shouldnt be the case.

thats why I say what does it look like because if you send a picture and I see a sagged rear, then you shouldnt shim it because when its corrected youll be way off lol

I have been noticing that TIME also plays a role in the rear control arm bushings. Whatever cheap rubber GM used, it deteriorates fast and starts to fall apart. SO while mileage may be low (under 100k), given that they are 18+ years old, the cheapo rubber used by GM gets destroyed by the ozone quickly.

I wonder when dropping the rear subframe, if mechanics disconnect the exhaust at the collector or somewhere else? Those bolts looks rusted and the heat cycles will making taking it off very difficult. I wonder if its easier to just cut the exhaust off mid pipe and then just weld it back into place?

BTW-Did YOU drop the rear subframe as show in that pic? If so, how hard was that job? Car lift or no lift?

 

[JGBuick]

Good topic for sure. I'm interested as I can actually see that the rear of "any" Lesabre with independent rear suspension will include some negative camber. What I can deduce from the photo's above is that "Toe" can be adjusted and camber really isn't "adjustable" but more determined by proper ride height (Springs, shocks, leveling-height etc.)

Worn bushings to my eye don't contribute all that much to the negative (or positive alignment for the rear wheels). Am I wrong?

Yes... they "do" contribute... but to what degree? (No pun intended). We all have seen those "Low-rider" customs with the hydraulic shocks mounted that push past the normal suspension limits and actually cause positive camber. That's the effect of having the suspension going past it's design.

But you get the point... I'm still thinking the "ride height" plays a more significant role in keeping the wheels in the correct camber range.

I also can imagine that the rear would benefit from "shims" if the alignment tech cannot obtain proper camber. Isn't this a fairly normal practice for these types of rear suspensions? GM didn't leave much in the way of "adjustment" here... That's why I'm thinking it's reliant on "height" etc.

I don't know what "normal" ride height is for these cars. I know when I had my Miata, the Ride-height "specs" were easily found and documented to see and extremely helpful when it came to dialing-in performance vs. street alignments.

Since the Buick is by no means a track car, I would venture to say it's alignment "specs" should be equated with obtaining the LEAST tire wear possible.

In other words... Very little negative rear camber. (Some is needed of course). It'll be interesting to see what happens here...

 

[2007LucerneCXL]

GM used this same system on various years and models, my Lucerne, so I was somewhat puzzled when I was told there is no mechanical camber adjustment for alignment. So off I went to find out how it was done and what options may be available and the shims were the only mechanical option available excluding the calibration method below.

I'll assume that the Lesabre alignment is going to be like the Lucerne where it needs a Tis2Web connection to the GM mothership to set up the calibration on the height sensor with the proper scanner interface. Some shops are unable to do this either because of lack of equipment or experience so it's something to confirm up front with a independent shop of course the dealership is always the default.

If it's not someone make a correction thank you.

 

[BuickGirlFromMars]

I have been noticing that TIME also plays a role in the rear control arm bushings. Whatever cheap rubber GM used, it deteriorates fast and starts to fall apart. SO while mileage may be low (under 100k), given that they are 18+ years old, the cheapo rubber used by GM gets destroyed by the ozone quickly.

I wonder when dropping the rear subframe, if mechanics disconnect the exhaust at the collector or somewhere else? Those bolts looks rusted and the heat cycles will making taking it off very difficult. I wonder if its easier to just cut the exhaust off mid pipe and then just weld it back into place?

BTW-Did YOU drop the rear subframe as show in that pic? If so, how hard was that job? Car lift or no lift?

no i found that.

But the subframe thing, i mean, heres the thing guys. Your subframe rear mounts are only able to wear so much and have THAT affect your camber. The entire car is a lever and acts on that which is a pivot and the setup is very relatively fine because of the fact those 2 pivots "follow" and also are constantly pinned by the suspension springs. If your camber is out, the LAST thing im touching is those pivots because it involves so much.

Try something like The air ride which directly sets the camber and the trim heights/ etc

 

[BuickGirlFromMars]

GM used this same system on various years and models, my Lucerne, so I was somewhat puzzled when I was told there is no mechanical camber adjustment for alignment. So off I went to find out how it was done and what options may be available and the shims were the only mechanical option available excluding the calibration method below.

I'll assume that the Lesabre alignment is going to be like the Lucerne where it needs a Tis2Web connection to the GM mothership to set up the calibration on the height sensor with the proper scanner interface. Some shops are unable to do this either because of lack of equipment or experience so it's something to confirm up front with a independent shop of course the dealership is always the default.

If it's not someone make a correction thank you.

ultimately if you have camber problems its probably a subframe mounting, wheel bearings, rear trim height issue. the arms are on the cross member, they should stay damn close to eachother but the anchor to the center body with the lateral links helps a bit too at side to side possibility.. which is why i keep coming back to CHECK AIR RIDE PLS GUYS

shims come last

 

[BuickGirlFromMars]

GM used this same system on various years and models, my Lucerne, so I was somewhat puzzled when I was told there is no mechanical camber adjustment for alignment. So off I went to find out how it was done and what options may be available and the shims were the only mechanical option available excluding the calibration method below.

I'll assume that the Lesabre alignment is going to be like the Lucerne where it needs a Tis2Web connection to the GM mothership to set up the calibration on the height sensor with the proper scanner interface. Some shops are unable to do this either because of lack of equipment or experience so it's something to confirm up front with a independent shop of course the dealership is always the default.

If it's not someone make a correction thank you.

2000-2005 lesabre, bonneville, park avenue will have a "ALC" adjustment but its more about setting the range for the Auto level. the sensor arm can still be changedl ike in 99 and older to change when and where it kicks on/off but its , in my opinion, the last thing you should touch since you presume the sensor and the control arm should always bbe in good placement of eachother
2006+ lucerne or whatever with 4 wheel level control is different from 2 wheel normal rear , the compressor is different too, but the wiring is the same im pretty sure. the but the scan tool stuff is slightly different but i think it worked "the same"

 

[2007LucerneCXL]

My 07 air system is a clone of previous GM, if you look at the diagrams theres no difference, but if the OP made some changes and didn't have the height sensor properly adjusted or something else is not operating properly the camber would be off.

 

[John Canon]

​

The rear control arm has its 2 bushings at the front ... that makes it a trailing arm suspension. If, and only if, the 4 bushings are in a straight line then there would be zero camber change as the trim height changed.

But, looking at the photos, the outer bushings are farther forward. That would put the camber toward negative when the car sits lower. So the trim height does affect the camber.

In the service instructions for the ALC, the trim height is specified as the height under the rocker panel just in front of the rear wheel. This does not include the flange, just the flat bottom. For a 1997 LeSabre that is specified as 9 inches.

 

[2007LucerneCXL]

 

[dondee]

Check rock auto. Might have to replace the control arms instead of just bushings. I have no idea about the ride height though. I guess I would measure ride height from ground to bottom of side panel above the tire.

thanks for the reply, no luck rockauto, the height specs use the bottom of the body to measure from, but difficult to tell which point since body is not one smooth surface

 

[dondee]

sounds like worn suspension
or improper ride control
if your car is not at trim height unloaded with the air system, then there is a problem with something thats for sure.
PICS?


here is one of the possible fixes depending on what you show us
View attachment 37580

thanks for reply, I have seen shims before but not first choice, alignment mech said bushings looked bad, my locall has many "damn!!!" potholes, I have tried to check ride height but not sure if I am doing right

 

[dondee]

BGFM is correct on the shims for camber alignment as the rear suspension only offers toe adjustment. Most shops are either not aware, know about them or want to install the shims. Basically the alignment is done, rear camber measured and degree is noted, correction shim determined, rear hubs removed and shims installed.

A simple way to check if the vehicle is operating level is to measure the distance of the rocker panel behind the front tire and in front of the rear tire. The alignment for camber is dependent on the height sensor and calibration along with shocks and springs in proper condition. If lower control arm is worn it requires a good amount of the rear suspension removed to install just a FYI.

View attachment 37582View attachment 37583

thanks for your reply, I will check the height by rocker panel and see what I get, I checked the height by ground to fender opening centered through the center of the wheels and the result is 28 to 28.25 inches at 4 wheels, unless there is fender anomaly I would think this is fairly accurate(?), note the difficulty of the arm.

 

[dondee]

The rear control arm bushings are not that expensive ($13 per pair).
Amazon.com: Mevotech MK6580 Suspension Control Arm Bushing : Automotive
You would need 2 per side and they would have to be pressed into the lower control arm.

View attachment 37595

The PROBLEM is that unlike the front lower control arms, the rears are not easily removed. You have to drop the entire rear subframe to remove the lower control arms. GM did not think about future replacement and the 2 bolts holding the arms cannot be removed without removing the subframe assembly. As the bolts hit the gas tank and body of the car. So the subframe must be dropped. One has to remove the exhaust to drop the subframe.

I got quoted $1,400 to do that job so for now, I am not doing it. I am getting my own car lift installed in the fall in my garage. Once I get that, I will probably tackle that job myself.

thanks for reply, I found these but the center piece which the bolt goes through not to pure looking due to the point made where the ends come together,