2002 Lesabre randomly shuts off while driving - no codes (to cause this)

I hope the stalling is gone for good. The ICM needs real thermal paste between it and the bracket. Engine block temperature of 195F is better that 300F inside the electronics. I have seen high temps cause erratic spark control.
Yes, I would lean towards ignition assuming the MAF Is a Hitachi or Delphi(Is it?)
Glad its better than before
Also the gas cap warning can be quick to pop up or it can take time it depends on fuel lvels, pressure readings, temps when turned off and on, when the system does other checks etc etc.

Actually, you mentioned that gas cap and weird fluctuations especially
"Looking at my fuel trims in real time crusing down the freeway one seems to really try to compensate for something"
so this is only cruising? Not other driving?

I would look at your Evap system purge valve for proper sealing and operation and mind you EGR is supposed to be working such that EGR flow is at its peak during steady cruising under moderate load.

sO your block off plate ,whatcha doin with that? EGR blocked, but the pintle is still moving because of PCM commands? Hows the seal? Did your PCM get tuned to not have EGR functions and the pipes were plugged and confirmed they were not cracked, split, or not sealing well becuase those sheet metal tubes are not very cooperative even if you never touched them, they are still made and not expensive but annoying to get the back one usuaully for sure. The early 3800 series 2 l36 also had issues with the sealing at the plastic intake. Basically, blocked off, you have 20 inches of mercury or something yanking on something barely stronger than old carbureted car stove pipes for the THERMACs on the air cleaner. The slinkie stuff. Or dryer vent stuff, that stuff doesnt like to cooperate either and its larger diameter. Perhaps would promote leaks esp with time.


Let us know whats the hu-bub with the EGR and check your purge valve You could try unhooking the valve and plugging the vacuum port to the TB On the TB. That would make the computer 1) not expect to use Evap purge for AFR calculations 2) not have any leaky gas or etc to change Same boat as the EGR basically.. If your car isnt seeing EGR valve and Evap purge valve, it cant errouneously correct for things that may be wrong with them but that doesnt guarantee things run better keep that in mind.

Check that ICM, check your PCV, check your Purge, let us know on EGR, let us know your MAF, when did you replace the first oxygen sensor? Show us a pic of the back of the engine from the top so your oxygen sensor and plug wires are visible and then one from the front for the plug wires and purge valve

Also have your battery load tested and your alternator checked.An alternator could have issues at that speeds because ignition system is demanding more and heat hates ICMs a lot like it hates alternators. Thats free and easy and its still not 100% but im trying.

There is an uncomfortable truth im about to share with you, other than the lean data we see over long term which, assuming its correctable, the behavior of the car on the cruise/highway is something that is magnified by driveability issues in 4, so try 3. But the uncomfortable part is the hyper focus on the fuel trim and the vigilance for the issue, you could continue to mistake a possible normal behavior as well as be a combination of not -trans things that seems to be 1 single thing. Chuggle. Fishbite.

If your TPS was OE, consider that a possible thing and put a new one on if you have it and make sure to properly install it on the butterfly thing.

```
Engine Controls - Intermittent Chuggle/No DTC's Set

Bulletin No.: 05-06-04-058

Date: September 07, 2005

TECHNICAL
Subject:
Intermittent Chuggle or Fishbite on Light Acceleration or at Highway Speeds with No Diagnostic Trouble Codes (DTCs) (Replace Throttle Position (TPS) Sensor)

Models:
1995-1999 Buick Riviera
1995-2004 Buick Regal
1995-2005 Buick LeSabre, Park Avenue
1997-2005 Buick Century
1995-2001 Chevrolet Lumina
1995-2002 Chevrolet Camaro
1995-2005 Chevrolet Monte Carlo
2000-2005 Chevrolet Impala
1995-1997 Oldsmobile Cutlass Supreme, Ninety Eight
1995-1999 Oldsmobile Eighty Eight
1998-2002 Oldsmobile Intrigue
1995-2002 Pontiac Firebird
1995-2003 Pontiac Grand Prix
1995-2005 Pontiac Bonneville

with 3800 V6 Engine (VIN K - RPO L36)

Condition

Some customers may comment on an intermittent chuggle or fishbite on light acceleration or at steady-state highway speeds (typically 80-105 km/h [50-65 mph]) with no PCM DTCs set. This condition may lead the technician to suspect the TCC circuit or torque converter.[no PCM dtc means that theres no DTC that would cause it, a small evap leak code wouldnt be that for example.]

Cause

This condition may be caused by intermittent operation of the Throttle Position (TPS) Sensor.

Correction

In observed cases, the Tech 2(R) is not fast enough to consistently detect this condition during a snapshot. It is recommended to use a DVOM set to the min/max recording mode. Connect the DVOM at the TPS connector (positive lead to TPS feedback signal pin and negative lead to TPS ground pin). Duplicate this condition by driving the vehicle. If the voltage dropout (less than 0.45 v) is recorded on the DVOM, replace the TPS sensor and re-evaluate the vehicle before continuing with other driveability or transmission diagnosis.
 
Wow, I never heard "fishbite" before, but I read about chuggle in my transmission diagnosis books. From now on, fishbite is my favorite automotive expression, ahead of deadband and dogtrack.
 
Wow, I never heard "fishbite" before, but I read about chuggle in my transmission diagnosis books. From now on, fishbite is my favorite automotive expression, ahead of deadband and dogtrack.
Spocks ear.

Fishbite is the periodic sensation of power difference when holding constant. not like a slip but kinda like a fish bitting a hook and bait
 
Replaced spark plug 6 with a new one. removed the plate blocking off the egr valve. Havent drove it.

Used a 9v battery with a bottle of carb cleaner and a rig i made somw years aho to clean an injector / see the spay patter. Works OK. You can find some youyubes of what it looks like. ( i didn't have a brand new feul injector - the 6 new ones are for a 3.5 toyota i fixed for a friend that just needed a fuel pump)

So I'll drive it some tomorrorw. After reading about the EGR valve and when it works decided it was time to take off the block off plate.

I've got 2 MAFs left from upullit I havent replaced.(and one new unknown brand) === The TPS was replaced several posts back. The data from it looks smooth from foot off gas pedel, to very slight, to full throttle position, - almost always cruising down the freeway. The po306 that has happened i think 3 times the last few days was under load, getting up the freeway ramp.

The fishbite activity has happened also about 4-5 times while crusing on the freeway.

My MPG is about 19.4 and climbing, according to the dash/fuel buttons. - freeway miles - almost all.
 
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I;ve got a new word in my vocabulary - Fishbite🙂

Sat in the driveway for about 20-30 minutes letting it idle, occasionally reving it to about 3000-3500.

Everything seems fine. Still have the .544 on the MAF @ idle -live data. It does increase with rpm.


at idle =
STFT -=0.0 to 3.9 mostly stays at + 3.9
LTFT -5.5 to -2.2
MAF - .544
MAP 8.0
RPM 734
Spark adv 24
IAT 79
Coolent temp 198
Load 2.4
 
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I stll have been reluctant to put on the ICM. It's probably one of the easiest parts to change. throw another part at the problem....

OK that's enough for anyone that might think they'll read this thread and correct their problem easy peasy.

...and it could be a simple fix for someone. As the Martian girl has stated I've over thought things....maybe. The lack of codes in the beginning sure has made things more difficult than should have been.

EGR is supposed to be working such that EGR flow is at its peak during steady cruising under moderate load.
I thought It was mostly activated during deceleration? Of course if your crusing down the freeway your load can change even on a level road just trying to stay at a constant speed.

--Good news is it doesn't just die anymore, but it still has some work needed.

- I feel I'm on the right track -- maybe
 
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  • If i were to recomend a part that is so easy to replace I'd probably hve to go with the Hatachi MAF




 
Replaced spark plug 6 with a new one. removed the plate blocking off the egr valve. Havent drove it.

Used a 9v battery with a bottle of carb cleaner and a rig i made somw years aho to clean an injector / see the spay patter. Works OK. You can find some youyubes of what it looks like. ( i didn't have a brand new feul injector - the 6 new ones are for a 3.5 toyota i fixed for a friend that just needed a fuel pump)

So I'll drive it some tomorrorw. After reading about the EGR valve and when it works decided it was time to take off the block off plate.

I've got 2 MAFs left from upullit I havent replaced.(and one new unknown brand) === The TPS was replaced several posts back. The data from it looks smooth from foot off gas pedel, to very slight, to full throttle position, - almost always cruising down the freeway. The po306 that has happened i think 3 times the last few days was under load, getting up the freeway ramp.

The fishbite activity has happened also about 4-5 times while crusing on the freeway.

My MPG is about 19.4 and climbing, according to the dash/fuel buttons. - freeway miles - almost all.
can you tell me the spark plug gap of your old plugs? and what did your wires look like, what dielectric grease did you use on them, how wre your coil-end towers, were there ANY carbon tracks on the plugs or the wires that remain.(pics would help) aeb98f5f350dcd1419ccdc6e1579b9f6.webp
carbon tracks can be on the metal, worse, smaller, finer, and also on the wire side on rubber or the metal

also ohm test your injectors to see if all are in range and to eachother, and your test is helpful yes but you cant rule them out since you didnt test them under operating conditions or temp variations etc. but it couldnt have hurt, tho.
I stll have been reluctant to put on the ICM. It's probably one of the easiest parts to change. throw another part at the problem....

OK that's enough for anyone that might think they'll read this thread and correct their problem easy peasy.

...and it could be a simple fix for someone. As the Martian girl has stated I've over thought things....maybe. The lack of codes in the beginning sure has made things more difficult than should have been.


I thought It was mostly activated during deceleration? Of course if your crusing down the freeway your load can change even on a level road just trying to stay at a constant speed.

--Good news is it doesn't just die anymore, but it still has some work needed.

- I feel I'm on the right track -- maybe
also yes, it is more so when accelerating but your car isnt in cruising conditions whereas its using fuel enrichment for accelerating and in a different gear most likely/your car may be in closed loop but manifold vac, air flow, throttle apply, and the like all are feeding it information that can be wholefully correct, but its always going to be more fueling and expecting to be there for power/demand, once youre cruising constant, its going to lean out as much as it can and then its looking to be efficient and your gear is probably overdrive, where fluctuations are naturally more pronounced from engine performance, road conditions transfering from suspension and driveline, engine resonance in that upper speed ranges, torque converter behavior and functionality, and then tire vibrationals or just radial force variations in general. An engine low on power, may, not have any chuggle or other issue until TCC lockup. If you could drive at the speed issues happen at and disallow TCCC engagement, i wonder what it would behave like. Your car has an ECC as well which is basically another clutch inside your tccc that allows it to take up slip at lower speeds than TCC and not cause jerky or constant torque feeling to change all around. You can disable TCCC by barely riding your brake while holding speed but not for long obviously, or you can prob pull a fuse but id have to check that for a lesabre

You could also drive it in 3rd but you may have to do the same thing because I cant remember if 3rd has lockup(manual 3rd) because a 4t60(440-t4) would allow TCC lockup in 3rd while in Drvie but not in 3. But just if you have a tach or you know your shift feels, if you can ID the difference between gear shift or have a basic scan tool and can see it on/off and what gear its current in, that would help too.
 
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Scan Tool Data List


Scan tool ParameterData ListUnits DisplayedTypical Data Value
Engine Idling/Radiator Hose Hot/Closed Throttle/Park or Neutral/Closed Loop/Accessories Off/Brake Pedal Released
3X Crank sensor
Eng 2
RPM
Varies
18X Crank sensor
Eng 2
RPM
Varies
1-2 Solenoid Circuit Status
ODD
OK/Fault/Invalid State
OK
2-3 Solenoid Circuit Status
ODD
OK/Fault/Invalid State
OK
A/C High Side Pressure Sensor
Eng 2
kPa/Volts
Varies
A/C Off For WOT
Eng 2
Yes/No
No
A/C Pressure Disable
Eng 2
Yes/No
No
A/C Relay Circuit Status
ODD
OK/Fault/Invalid State
OK
A/C Relay Command
Eng 1, 2, EGR, Misfire
On/Off
Off
A/C Request Signal
Eng 2
Yes/No
No
Air Fuel Ratio
Eng 2, Fuel Trim
Ratio
14.2:1–14.7:1
AIR Pump Relay Circuit Status
ODD
OK/Fault/Invalid State
OK
AIR Pump Relay Command
Eng 1, Fuel Trim
On/Off
Off
AIR Solenoid Circuit Status
ODD
OK/Fault/Invalid State
OK
AIR Solenoid Command
Fuel Trim, Eng 1
On/Off
Off
BARO
Eng 1, EGR, EVAP, Fuel Trim
kPa/
65–110 kPa
CMP Sensor Signal Present
Eng 2
Yes/No
Yes
Cruise Control Active
Eng 1
Yes/No
Yes
Cruise Inhibit Reason
Eng 1
Varies
Vehicle Speed
Cruise Inhibit Signal Circuit Status
ODD
OK/Stuck Low (open)/Stuck High/Fault
OK
Cruise Inhibit Signal Command
Eng 1
On/Off
On
Current Gear
Eng 1, Eng 2, EGR, Fuel Trim
Transmission Gear Position
1
Cycles of Misfire Data
Misfire
Counts
0–99
Cyl. 1-6 Injector Circuit History
ODD
OK / Stuck Low/Open / Stuck High / Fault
OK
Cyl. 1-6 Injector Circuit Status
ODD
OK/Stuck Low (open)/Stuck High
OK
Decel Fuel Cutoff
EGR, Fuel Trim
Active/Inactive
Inactive
Desired EGR Position
Eng 1, EGR, Misfire
Percent
0
Desired EGR Position
EGR
Volts
0
Desired Idle Speed
Eng 1, 2, EVAP
RPM
PCM Controlled (varies)
Driver Module 1 Status
ODD
Enabled/Off-High Volts/Off High Temp/Invalid State
Enabled
Driver Module 2 Status
ODD
Enabled/Off-High Volts/Off High Temp/Invalid State
Enabled
Driver Module 3 Status
ODD
Enabled/Off-High Volts/Off High Temp/Invalid State
Enabled
Driver Module 4 Status
ODD
Enabled/Off-High Volts/Off High Temp/Invalid State
Enabled
ECT Sensor
Eng 1, 2, EGR, EVAP, Misfire, Fuel Trim
°C/°F
Varies
EGR Flow Test Count
EGR
Counts
0–10
EGR Learned Minimum Position
EGR
Volts
0.14–1.0
EGR Position Sensor
Engine 1, EGR, Misfire
Percent
Varies
EGR Position Sensor
EGR
Volts
0
EGR Position Variance
EGR
Percent
0–9
EGR Solenoid Circuit History
ODD
OK/Fault
OK
EGR Solenoid Circuit Status
ODD
Enabled/Off-High Volts/Off High Temp/Invalid State
OK
EGR Solenoid Command
EGR
Percent
0
Engine Load
Eng 1, 2, Misfire, Fuel Trim, EVAP, EGR
Percent
2-5
Engine Oil Level Switch
Eng 2
OK/Low
OK
Engine Oil Life Remaining
Eng 2
Percent
0%–100% (varies)
Engine Oil Pressure Sensor
Eng 2
Volts
2–3 volts
Engine Run Time
Engine 1, 2, EVAP, Misfire, Fuel Trim, EGR
Hr: Min: Sec
Varies
Engine Speed
Eng 1, 2, EGR, EVAP, Misfire, Fuel Trim
RPM
Varies
EVAP Solenoid Command
Fuel Trim, EVAP
Percent
Low and Varying
EVAP Fault History
EVAP
No Fault/Excess Vacuum/Purge Valve Leak/Small Leak/Weak Vacuum
No Fault
EVAP Purge Solenoid Circuit Status
ODD
OK/Fault/Invalid State
OK
EVAP Purge Solenoid Command
Eng 1, EVAP, Fuel Trim
%
Varies
EVAP Test Abort Reason
EVAP
Not Aborted/Lost Enable/Small Leak/Veh. Not At Rest
Not Aborted
EVAP Test Result
EVAP
No Result/Passed/Aborted/Fail-DTCP0440/Fail-DTC P0442/Fail-DTC P1441
Passed
EVAP Test State
EVAP
Wait For Purge/Test Running/Test Completed
Test Completed
EVAP Vent Solenoid Circuit Status
ODD
OK/Fault/Invalid State
OK
EVAP Vent Solenoid Command
Engine 1, EVAP, Fuel Trim
Venting/Not Venting
Venting
Extended Travel Brake Pedal Switch
Eng 2
Engaged/Released
Released
FC Relay 1 Circuit Status
ODD
OK/Fault/Invalid State
OK
FC Relay 1 Command
Eng 2
On/Off
Off
FC Relay 2 and 3 Circuit Status
ODD
OK/Fault/Invalid State
OK
FC Relay 2 and 3 Command
Eng 2
On/Off
Off
Fuel Pump Relay Circuit History Status
ODD
OK/Fault
OK
Fuel Pump Relay Circuit Status
ODD
OK/Fault/Invalid State
OK
Fuel Pump Relay Command
Eng 1
On/Off
On
Fuel Tank Level Remaining
EVAP
Percent
0–100
Fuel Tank Pressure Sensor
Engine 1, EVAP
mm Hg/in H2O
Varies
Fuel Tank Pressure Sensor
EVAP
Volts
Varies
Fuel Trim Cell
EVAP, Eng 1, Fuel Trim
0-4
0
Fuel Trim Learn
Eng 1, EVAP, Fuel Trim
Enabled/Disabled
Varies
GEN F-Terminal Signal
Eng 2
Percent
Varies
GEN L-Terminal Signal Command
Eng 2
ON/OFF
ON
HO2S 1
EVAP, Eng 1, Fuel Trim
millivolts
0–1,000 and Varying
HO2S 2
Eng 1, Fuel Trim
millivolts
0-1000 and Varying
IAC Position
Eng 1, EGR, Fuel Trim
Counts
10–40
IAT Sensor
Eng 1, 2, EVAP, EGR, Fuel Trim
°C/°F
Varies
Ignition 1 Signal
EVAP, Eng 1, 2, EGR, Fuel Trim
Volts
Varies
Ignition Mode
Eng 2
IC/Bypass
IC
Injector PWM
Eng 2, Fuel Trim, Misfire
ms
Varies (1.5–3.5)
Knock Retard
Eng 1, EGR
Degrees
0
Long Term FT
Eng 1, 2, EVAP, Fuel Trim
Percent
-10%–+10%
Loop Status
Eng 1, 2, Fuel Trim, EVAP, EGR
Open/Closed
Closed
MAF Sensor
Eng 1, 2, EGR, Misfire, EVAP, Fuel Trim
g/s
3–6 (depends on altitude)
MAF Sensor
Eng 2
Hz
1,200–3,000 (depends on altitude)
MAP Sensor
Eng 1, 2
kPa/Volts
20-48 kPa/0.75–2 Volts (depends on altitude)
MAP Sensor
EGR, EVAP, Fuel Trim, Misfire
kPa
20–48 kPa (depends on altitude)
MIL Circuit Status
ODD
OK/Fault/Invalid State
OK
MIL Command
Eng 2
On/Off
Off
Misfire Current Cyl. 1-6
Misfire
Counts
0–4
Misfire History Cyl. 1-6
Misfire
Counts
0
Number of DTC(s)
Eng 1, EVAP, Fuel Trim
Numeric Value
0
PCM / VCM in VTD Fail Enable
Eng 1
Yes/No
No
Power Enrichment
Eng 2, Misfire,
Active/Inactive
Inactive
Short Term FT
Eng 1, 2, EVAP, Fuel Trim
Percent
-10–+10
Spark
Eng 1, 2, Misfire, Fuel Trim
Degrees
-20 (varies)
Starter Enable Relay Circuit Status
ODD
OK/Fault/Invalid State
OK
Starter Relay Command
Eng 2
On/Off
Off
Start Up ECT
EVAP, Fuel Trim
°C/°F
Varies
Start Up IAT
EVAP, Fuel Trim
°C/°F
Varies
TCC Brake Pedal Switch
Eng 1, 2
Applied/Released
Released
TCC PWM Solenoid Command
Eng 2
On/Off
Off
TCS Circuit History
ODD
OK/Fault
OK
TCS Circuit Status
ODD
OK/Fault
OK
TFP Switch
Eng 2, EGR, Fuel Trim
Invalid/ Park/Neutral/ Reverse/Drive 1/Drive 2/Drive 3/Drive 4
Park/Neutral
TP Sensor
Eng 1, 2, EGR, Fuel Trim, EVAP, Misfire
Percent
1–4
TP Sensor
Eng 1, 2
Volts
0.5–1.2
Traction Control Status (If Equipped)
Eng 2
Active/Inactive
Inactive
Torque Request Signal (If Equipped)
Eng 2
Percent
100%
Torque Delivered Signal (If Equipped)
Eng 2
Percent
70%
Vehicle Speed Sensor
Eng 1, 2, EGR, EVAP, Fuel Trim, Misfire
MPH/Km/h
0
VTD Auto. Learn Timer
Eng 1
Active/Inactive
Inactive
VTD Fuel Disable
Eng 1
Active/Inactive
Inactive
VTD Fuel Disable Until Ign. Off
Eng 1
Yes/No
 
Is your MAF displaying VOLTS or Hz because volts is possibly ok but Hz is not. Also, yoru MAP sensor says 8. that means nothing, what the hell is it displaying? Your engine wouldnt be running if that were the manifold pressure because it should be higher

unless thats in psi which your scan tool displays it in pSI??? kilopascals is the future

also someone else chime in for an L36 @Mad_Coachman you are a good example, is 24 degrees advance at idle seem high? I have a l67 and I havent paid attention much to the l36 ive seen. I looked up on google quick and I see a lot of 12-20 at most for a lot of l36 and the scan tool list I posted isnt helpful by saying varies lol.

Also OP, what spark plug? 41-101?
 
Is your MAF displaying VOLTS or Hz because volts is possibly ok but Hz is not. Also, yoru MAP sensor says 8. that means nothing, what the hell is it displaying? Your engine wouldnt be running if that were the manifold pressure because it should be higher

unless thats in psi which your scan tool displays it in pSI??? kilopascals is the future

also someone else chime in for an L36 @Mad_Coachman you are a good example, is 24 degrees advance at idle seem high? I have a l67 and I havent paid attention much to the l36 ive seen. I looked up on google quick and I see a lot of 12-20 at most for a lot of l36 and the scan tool list I posted isnt helpful by saying varies lol.

Also OP, what spark plug? 41-101?
I believe I've seen 24 degrees at idle but I'll double check later when I go out to the store. I still think his MAF reading is too high.😒
 
I;ve got a new word in my vocabulary - Fishbite🙂
Whenever I experienced that Fishbite sensation it was usually caused by a cracked plug with carbon tracking. It won't show up at idle or revving the engine in park but will happen under a load such as TCC lockup. Generally you'll see white streaks on the inside of the spark plug boot which indicates the spark has "found" another path.
 
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I believe I've seen 24 degrees at idle but I'll double check later when I go out to the store. I still think his MAF reading is too high.😒
very possible, its seems weird to me
Snapchat-723881542.webpSnapchat-1857902677.webpSnapchat-1257562461.webp
sadly I dont remember what the MAF g/s translates to but my third pic is at idle, no throttle, and warm, so hopefully its a decent reference. my engine is different tho, but similar.
 
a147cbd7c9fd23ad5744c947aa131c12.webpif plugs are not carbon tracked, this is a good test for your wires and the coil pack(the distributor cap pictured you would just instead use the tower of the coil pack) for an OHm test.
 
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voltmeter
a few of those..........

Had to do a residential camera instalation today. 1st time working with a new guy so it took all day. Weathers gonna be rough, but I'll get back on it.
 
Wow. MartianGirl, I'm just a back yard monkey. You really dig into things.

OK I've been driving the car and it never shuts off or has problems that started this mega thread, but I still don't have things just right.

As I said above I'll do some more in dept stuff when i can, To let you know where I'm at...i got a po306. The plug looked good (iridium set at 40) so i cleaned checked the injector for that cyl. All checked ok to me. Installed new plug and same injector. I also took off the egr block off plate, which was nothing more than a piece of aluminum under the EGR solinoid.

Car is running good except for an occsional po306.....and got a po401 today. Not much time to spend on it as work comes 1st to pay the bills.

I do really like this car.
 
what do you mean by iridum set at .040 your car needs iridiums you cant change at .060.
 
what do you mean by iridum set at .040
I think that;s what they were when i purchased then. Didnt. check gap with a tool.

-------------------------edit------------------

Your probably right. Looks like Iridum plugs for a 2002 lesabre w/3.8 come gapped at .060 I didnt change the gap. Jutst the plugs some miles ago. (less than 20,000 moles ago.)
 
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