97 PA mysterious coolant loss

[90sbuickrescue]

They may not fail the same way, but I disagree as strongly as I can, in that what dexcool does, it should not do. A friend of mine was trying to convince me of that a couple years ago, and I said, but surely, they would not design a coolant that melts rubber gaskets..? Not too long after I was searching for a coolant that was non conductive, no phosphates, no this, no that, whatever, and dexcool seemed like a viable option. Coolant for my tig torch. Vs the outrageously overprice miller crap at like $50 a gallon. Well, fast forward, the tig cooler started leaking, and the hose on the torch broke/split open at the welder connection. Coincidence? My friend just laughed when I told him about that. If I knew how to post pics on here (no I'm not that old, modern technology just annoys me) I'd post some pics of the last intake gaskets I did on a dexcool motor. They were all swollen, melted and warped, the green stuff flat out does not do that!

And honestly why run dexcool anyway when the wal mart coolant is perfectly fine, compatible with everything, and only like $8 a gallon..?

 

[BuickGirlFromMars]

They may not fail the same way, but I disagree as strongly as I can, in that what dexcool does, it should not do. A friend of mine was trying to convince me of that a couple years ago, and I said, but surely, they would not design a coolant that melts rubber gaskets..? Not too long after I was searching for a coolant that was non conductive, no phosphates, no this, no that, whatever, and dexcool seemed like a viable option. Coolant for my tig torch. Vs the outrageously overprice miller crap at like $50 a gallon. Well, fast forward, the tig cooler started leaking, and the hose on the torch broke/split open at the welder connection. Coincidence? My friend just laughed when I told him about that. If I knew how to post pics on here (no I'm not that old, modern technology just annoys me) I'd post some pics of the last intake gaskets I did on a dexcool motor. They were all swollen, melted and warped, the green stuff flat out does not do that!

And honestly why run dexcool anyway when the wal mart coolant is perfectly fine, compatible with everything, and only like $8 a gallon..?

no offense but you used an engine coolant for welder/cutting torch? Cant really fault dexcool for something outside of its intended use lol.

But dexcool as it stands now does not hurt these engines, it just doesnt. But no one can deny the pre 2004 ish formulation wasnt problematic, because it was.

 

[Pirate Pete]

They may not fail the same way, but I disagree as strongly as I can, in that what dexcool does, it should not do. A friend of mine was trying to convince me of that a couple years ago, and I said, but surely, they would not design a coolant that melts rubber gaskets..? Not too long after I was searching for a coolant that was non conductive, no phosphates, no this, no that, whatever, and dexcool seemed like a viable option. Coolant for my tig torch. Vs the outrageously overprice miller crap at like $50 a gallon. Well, fast forward, the tig cooler started leaking, and the hose on the torch broke/split open at the welder connection. Coincidence? My friend just laughed when I told him about that. If I knew how to post pics on here (no I'm not that old, modern technology just annoys me) I'd post some pics of the last intake gaskets I did on a dexcool motor. They were all swollen, melted and warped, the green stuff flat out does not do that!

And honestly why run dexcool anyway when the wal mart coolant is perfectly fine, compatible with everything, and only like $8 a gallon..?

My 23 year old Park Avenue disagrees with you as it likes Dexcool 🙃

 

[90sbuickrescue]

Pete, that's like putting acid in a steel glass, letting it sit, and saying, "my glass likes acid" because it hasn't dissolved through it yet!

BGFM, do you have any more info about them changing the formula of dexcool after 2004?

I just googled "dexcool lawsuit" and this is the first result that came up.

On October 23, 2008, the California Superior Court granted final approval to the class action settlement reached with General Motors in the GM/Dex-Cool class action lawsuit. This settlement affects people who purchased or leased a “covered vehicle” anywhere in the United States other than Missouri. A separate settlement has been reached for those who purchased or leased their vehicle in Missouri, which will offer the same benefits.

The lawsuits were filed on behalf of owners of General Motors vehicles, which were factory-filled with “Dex-Cool” coolant. In summary, the lawsuits alleged that Dex-Cool degraded certain vehicles’ intake manifold gaskets and other engine sealability components, and that in certain other vehicles, Dex-Cool formed a rusty sludge, clogging the vehicles’ cooling systems and causing vehicles to overheat.

The settlement, which covers dozens of GM vehicle platforms spanning ten model years, provides $50 to $800 in cash reimbursement for class members who paid for a covered repair by May 30, 2008, and submitted a claim form by October 27, 2008.

 

[BuickGirlFromMars]

Pete, that's like putting acid in a steel glass, letting it sit, and saying, "my glass likes acid" because it hasn't dissolved through it yet!

BGFM, do you have any more info about them changing the formula of dexcool after 2004?

I just googled "dexcool lawsuit" and this is the first result that came up.

On October 23, 2008, the California Superior Court granted final approval to the class action settlement reached with General Motors in the GM/Dex-Cool class action lawsuit. This settlement affects people who purchased or leased a “covered vehicle” anywhere in the United States other than Missouri. A separate settlement has been reached for those who purchased or leased their vehicle in Missouri, which will offer the same benefits.

The lawsuits were filed on behalf of owners of General Motors vehicles, which were factory-filled with “Dex-Cool” coolant. In summary, the lawsuits alleged that Dex-Cool degraded certain vehicles’ intake manifold gaskets and other engine sealability components, and that in certain other vehicles, Dex-Cool formed a rusty sludge, clogging the vehicles’ cooling systems and causing vehicles to overheat.

The settlement, which covers dozens of GM vehicle platforms spanning ten model years, provides $50 to $800 in cash reimbursement for class members who paid for a covered repair by May 30, 2008, and submitted a claim form by October 27, 2008.

Ive done a lot of deep dives, and the 2004 thing was corroborated by SDS and a change in the claimed protection intervals and part numbers of the original fluids back in the day on numerous forums. I dont have any specific source to point out.
your analogy about acid in a steel glass is not in any way representative of what dexcool does or is. If you have a iron glass, with aluminum parts, the fluid gets hot, circulates, and you would know it eventually creates a protective layer which keeps the aluminum from corroding (aluminum doesnt like to be touching iron and it also doesnt like to be bare on its own either. )

 

[90sbuickrescue]

The analogy is just that is hasn't failed in a visible way yet, but the clock is ticking.

Sometimes I try to be a nerd and go pretty deep into stuff like this, but I don't really know too much about the chemistry of how this stuff works. Because of that I mostly just report what I've seen, or the amount I do know to be true. Closest I've come to studying it is in an unrelated field, hydroponics. Trying to understand how plants change the pH of an electrically conductive nutrient solution based on uptaking or releasing hydroxide or hydronium ions, based on what nutrients they're uptaking.
I don't know if a solution can dissolve dissimilar metals in contact if it has a high ec or tds, (salt) but also is a base, like a pH of 11 or so. I honestly don't even understand how acid dissolves metal at all. It seems almost like magic to me!

I also don't know what is in, or could be in a coolant that can make rubber swell and melt.

I know that when you have 2 dissimilar metals in an electrically conductive solution, you have galvanic corrosion if they touch. Aluminum forms an oxide coating in air, (which is why you need ac balance on a tig welder to weld it) but that coating doesn't result in protection if it's in a solution that continuously dissolves it or causes it to form. Like road salt on an aluminum trailer with steel rivets, brackets, and bolts. The aluminum has to be separated from the steel with plastic or it turns to dust when the salt hits it. I've plasma cut out and welded in new floor on a few livestock trailers because part of the aluminum floor was in contact with the steel frame in the midwest winter road salt. I'm not saying dexcool, or the pre 2004 dexcool formula dissolves aluminum. However, I have wondered about that. I just pulled the 3.8 out of a car I bought for parts and when I pulled the upper coolant hose off the thermostat housing, the part of the housing the hose was on was covered in white dust, aluminum oxide. I thought that was actually pretty weird considering the hose being tightly clamped on it should have been blocking air, or oxygen, from reaching it. I have never seen that with a vehicle with green coolant. Now I'm debating pulling the lower intake off and doing those gaskets because it did have dexcool in it. I don't want to have to do that later when the motor is already installed.

I also don't know why all these different coolant types exist. Why does a motorcycle use or specify a different coolant formula than a pickup, or a diesel engine? Don't they basically all have the same requirements? The wal mart coolant I've been buying says it's more or less compatible with everything. Probably not diesels though. Cummins/fleetguard makes an additive you pour into green coolant to make it meet their spec, if you don't want to buy the coolant from them. I have no idea what that is, but I remember it having all kinds of warning labels on it. Like this product will melt your whole face, be careful.

 

[Pirate Pete]

Pete, that's like putting acid in a steel glass, letting it sit, and saying, "my glass likes acid" because it hasn't dissolved through it yet!

BGFM, do you have any more info about them changing the formula of dexcool after 2004?

I just googled "dexcool lawsuit" and this is the first result that came up.

On October 23, 2008, the California Superior Court granted final approval to the class action settlement reached with General Motors in the GM/Dex-Cool class action lawsuit. This settlement affects people who purchased or leased a “covered vehicle” anywhere in the United States other than Missouri. A separate settlement has been reached for those who purchased or leased their vehicle in Missouri, which will offer the same benefits.

The lawsuits were filed on behalf of owners of General Motors vehicles, which were factory-filled with “Dex-Cool” coolant. In summary, the lawsuits alleged that Dex-Cool degraded certain vehicles’ intake manifold gaskets and other engine sealability components, and that in certain other vehicles, Dex-Cool formed a rusty sludge, clogging the vehicles’ cooling systems and causing vehicles to overheat.

The settlement, which covers dozens of GM vehicle platforms spanning ten model years, provides $50 to $800 in cash reimbursement for class members who paid for a covered repair by May 30, 2008, and submitted a claim form by October 27, 2008.

My car is approaching 24 years old in 5 months . How much longer do you think I have to wait?

 

[Pirate Pete]

The analogy is just that is hasn't failed in a visible way yet, but the clock is ticking.

Sometimes I try to be a nerd and go pretty deep into stuff like this, but I don't really know too much about the chemistry of how this stuff works. Because of that I mostly just report what I've seen, or the amount I do know to be true. Closest I've come to studying it is in an unrelated field, hydroponics. Trying to understand how plants change the pH of an electrically conductive nutrient solution based on uptaking or releasing hydroxide or hydronium ions, based on what nutrients they're uptaking.
I don't know if a solution can dissolve dissimilar metals in contact if it has a high ec or tds, (salt) but also is a base, like a pH of 11 or so. I honestly don't even understand how acid dissolves metal at all. It seems almost like magic to me!

I also don't know what is in, or could be in a coolant that can make rubber swell and melt.

I know that when you have 2 dissimilar metals in an electrically conductive solution, you have galvanic corrosion if they touch. Aluminum forms an oxide coating in air, (which is why you need ac balance on a tig welder to weld it) but that coating doesn't result in protection if it's in a solution that continuously dissolves it or causes it to form. Like road salt on an aluminum trailer with steel rivets, brackets, and bolts. The aluminum has to be separated from the steel with plastic or it turns to dust when the salt hits it. I've plasma cut out and welded in new floor on a few livestock trailers because part of the aluminum floor was in contact with the steel frame in the midwest winter road salt. I'm not saying dexcool, or the pre 2004 dexcool formula dissolves aluminum. However, I have wondered about that. I just pulled the 3.8 out of a car I bought for parts and when I pulled the upper coolant hose off the thermostat housing, the part of the housing the hose was on was covered in white dust, aluminum oxide. I thought that was actually pretty weird considering the hose being tightly clamped on it should have been blocking air, or oxygen, from reaching it. I have never seen that with a vehicle with green coolant. Now I'm debating pulling the lower intake off and doing those gaskets because it did have dexcool in it. I don't want to have to do that later when the motor is already installed.

I also don't know why all these different coolant types exist. Why does a motorcycle use or specify a different coolant formula than a pickup, or a diesel engine? Don't they basically all have the same requirements? The wal mart coolant I've been buying says it's more or less compatible with everything. Probably not diesels though. Cummins/fleetguard makes an additive you pour into green coolant to make it meet their spec, if you don't want to buy the coolant from them. I have no idea what that is, but I remember it having all kinds of warning labels on it. Like this product will melt your whole face, be careful.

The clock has been ticking for almost 24 years. How many more years do I have to wait to see it " do it's thing"?

 

[BuickGirlFromMars]

The analogy is just that is hasn't failed in a visible way yet, but the clock is ticking.

Sometimes I try to be a nerd and go pretty deep into stuff like this, but I don't really know too much about the chemistry of how this stuff works. Because of that I mostly just report what I've seen, or the amount I do know to be true. Closest I've come to studying it is in an unrelated field, hydroponics. Trying to understand how plants change the pH of an electrically conductive nutrient solution based on uptaking or releasing hydroxide or hydronium ions, based on what nutrients they're uptaking.
I don't know if a solution can dissolve dissimilar metals in contact if it has a high ec or tds, (salt) but also is a base, like a pH of 11 or so. I honestly don't even understand how acid dissolves metal at all. It seems almost like magic to me!

I also don't know what is in, or could be in a coolant that can make rubber swell and melt.

I know that when you have 2 dissimilar metals in an electrically conductive solution, you have galvanic corrosion if they touch. Aluminum forms an oxide coating in air, (which is why you need ac balance on a tig welder to weld it) but that coating doesn't result in protection if it's in a solution that continuously dissolves it or causes it to form. Like road salt on an aluminum trailer with steel rivets, brackets, and bolts. The aluminum has to be separated from the steel with plastic or it turns to dust when the salt hits it. I've plasma cut out and welded in new floor on a few livestock trailers because part of the aluminum floor was in contact with the steel frame in the midwest winter road salt. I'm not saying dexcool, or the pre 2004 dexcool formula dissolves aluminum. However, I have wondered about that. I just pulled the 3.8 out of a car I bought for parts and when I pulled the upper coolant hose off the thermostat housing, the part of the housing the hose was on was covered in white dust, aluminum oxide. I thought that was actually pretty weird considering the hose being tightly clamped on it should have been blocking air, or oxygen, from reaching it. I have never seen that with a vehicle with green coolant. Now I'm debating pulling the lower intake off and doing those gaskets because it did have dexcool in it. I don't want to have to do that later when the motor is already installed.

I also don't know why all these different coolant types exist. Why does a motorcycle use or specify a different coolant formula than a pickup, or a diesel engine? Don't they basically all have the same requirements? The wal mart coolant I've been buying says it's more or less compatible with everything. Probably not diesels though. Cummins/fleetguard makes an additive you pour into green coolant to make it meet their spec, if you don't want to buy the coolant from them. I have no idea what that is, but I remember it having all kinds of warning labels on it. Like this product will melt your whole face, be careful.

The green coolant you mentioned, if you have green coolant that is outside of its service interval (supposed to be 3 years and 50k-100k depending on who you ask) , its no longer doing its job. Green coolant works just fine. ITs abrasive. It maintains its systems by being abrasive and keeping the surfaces clean and the only place to go for the stuff it removes is to suspend in itself. Thats why its supposed to be maintained because you dont want all that in suspension and you want it to keep the everyting shiny and clean.

The corrosion you saw is multi faceted. 1) cooling systems need to be bled. notice the 3800 has a bleeder valve on the thermostat housing, its not for conversation sake it has a purpose , air in the system is actually one of the things that dexcool was crippled by, factory was sending out cars without bleeding the air and the air not only insulated, causes hot spots, inhibits flow, the usual, it reacted with the coolant to break it down from its purpose. And it actually could promote biological growth. This bacteria/fungal growth is itself corrosive to metal systems, and there are most definitely microbes out there pounding away at aluminum and iron able to be alive inside an engine cooling system. this caused byproduct and hose deterioration and metal wear and yeah.

 

[90sbuickrescue]

The clock has been ticking for almost 24 years. How many more years do I have to wait to see it " do it's thing"?

Well, I don't know, but are you saying the dexcool lawsuit was without merit? Thanks to what BGFM wrote above about the post 2004 formula, I'm hoping the motor I just swapped in is still ok despite having dexcool in it, I decided to just install it instead of changing the gaskets first. But that lawsuit was in 2008 if I remember correctly, so I don't know.

Pretty crazy any bacteria or fungi can survive in a 200 degree system. I've heard of algae growing in diesel, actually seen it in a big tank on a farm I used to work for, but I'd figure the temp of the cooling system would completely destroy any type of biological organism.

 

[BuickGirlFromMars]

Well, I don't know, but are you saying the dexcool lawsuit was without merit? Thanks to what BGFM wrote above about the post 2004 formula, I'm hoping the motor I just swapped in is still ok despite having dexcool in it, I decided to just install it instead of changing the gaskets first. But that lawsuit was in 2008 if I remember correctly, so I don't know.

Pretty crazy any bacteria or fungi can survive in a 200 degree system. I've heard of algae growing in diesel, actually seen it in a big tank on a farm I used to work for, but I'd figure the temp of the cooling system would completely destroy any type of biological organism.

not crazy at all, bacteria are the most resiliant living organisms on the planet, and in this known system(milky way) thus far, since we have found them on asteroids that have entered orbit and landed i think its safe to say they are stronk.

fungi are very adaptable and very very opportunistic, and at present the oldest living being on earth that we know of is a specific mushroom who spans a Very large area in a forest. Quick search shows " fungus in the pacific northwest spans 5.5 kilometres across, covering about 2,384 acres"

While fungi typically dont take the heat quite like bacteria, fungi have a special ability to withstand stress. You can kill a fungus entirely, and as long as its spores are present, all it takes is the presence of water for it to reanimate.
Bacteria are great at forming biofilms(bacteria and fungi can form biofilms together in a seeming cooperative relationship too!) which basically use their dead as a barrier between the living and environment to protect them and enable them to feed off what is to their backs. your engine, your hoses, etc. In this instance at least.

The lawsuit was definitely with merit and im sad it had such a small window to claim and the payouts could have been better, but its the nature of many class actions.

Think of it like this, 200 degrees sucks but thats not even the temperature of we use to autoclave instruments or various other things. 121 celcius at a prolonged time under pressure is closer,. unless you are borderline overheating your car for an hour everyday you couldnt be killing everything basically.

 

[Pirate Pete]

Well, I don't know, but are you saying the dexcool lawsuit was without merit? Thanks to what BGFM wrote above about the post 2004 formula, I'm hoping the motor I just swapped in is still ok despite having dexcool in it, I decided to just install it instead of changing the gaskets first. But that lawsuit was in 2008 if I remember correctly, so I don't know.

Pretty crazy any bacteria or fungi can survive in a 200 degree system. I've heard of algae growing in diesel, actually seen it in a big tank on a farm I used to work for, but I'd figure the temp of the cooling system would completely destroy any type of biological organism.

I didn't say anything. Don't put words in my mouth. I simply asked you how many more years do I have to wait for the Dexcool to " do it's thing"?

 

[fishinfool56]

I'm back folks!! Just started working on the Buick after a long summer. I am at the point where I have the upper intake removed. Going to take the lower off tomorrow and replace both U&L intake gaskets. I noticed there is what looks to be oil and coolant between the two laying on top of the lower intake, where they mate. My question is how did the coolant get there? There seems to coolant in the hole for egr tube (I haven't taken off the egr tube yet). Does the coolant flow through the smaller holes in the same area as the egr tube? I'm just concerned that upper and lower may not do the trick. What your opinion?

 

[HotZ28]

The UIM failure can cause everything you have described. Once you replace the UIM/LIM with quality parts & gaskets, I think you will be good to go. BTW. don't forget to change the oil & filter now & at least two times in the first 1K miles after doing all the work! Be sure to flush all the old coolant out of the block & radiator & then install new coolant. Use cheap oil for the first few changes with a can of sea foam additive to help clean all the coolant residue out. Once that is all accomplished you can go back to your recommended/preferred oil/filter changes.

 

[fishinfool56]

The UIM failure can cause everything you have described. Once you replace the UIM/LIM with quality parts & gaskets, I think you will be good to go. BTW. don't forget to change the oil & filter now & at least two times in the first 1K miles after doing all the work! Be sure to flush all the old coolant out of the block & radiator & then install new coolant. Use cheap oil for the first few changes with a can of sea foam additive to help clean all the coolant residue out. Once that is all accomplished you can go back to your recommended/preferred oil/filter changes.

Cool deal, im mechanicly inclined on the older small block stuff, but this newer stuff scares me lol. It was surprisingly easy, the rest of my fel-pro gaskets should be here tomorrow. I somehow stripped the tensioner when trying to get the belt off when pulling the alternator. Kinda bummed about that but in doing so it ahowed me the pulley bearing was shot, even though i replaced it last year. Gonna pick up a new tomorrow as well tensioner. I'm excited to get it back together and see what happens.

 

[fishinfool56]

Cool deal, im mechanicly inclined on the older small block stuff, but this newer stuff scares me lol. It was surprisingly easy, the rest of my fel-pro gaskets should be here tomorrow. I somehow stripped the tensioner when trying to get the belt off when pulling the alternator. Kinda bummed about that but in doing so it ahowed me the pulley bearing was shot, even though i replaced it last year. Gonna pick up a new tomorrow as well tensioner. I'm excited to get it back together and see what

 

[fishinfool56]

Well Amazon screwed me on delivery on the gaskets. I have the upper but not the lower. They're now supposed to be here tomorrow. I do have 2 more questions, I feel like I'm correct in my thoughts but wanna verify with everyone. The elbow that goes into the lower intake broke as expected. Inhave the metal ones to replace it. However the part that was stuck in the intake found it's way into the intake and I can't get it back to the hole to grab it with a hook and pick set. Im guessing I can pop the rectangle plat le in the other side off and fish it out that way, RTV on the cover and bolt it back down, let me know if I'm wrong lol. And question two, my tensioner has the lower "elbow" cast into the tensioner as non replaceable, no biggie. Do I put the upper elbow that goes in the intake in the tensioner and work them in the block and intake together? I feel like this job isn't bad, just a few things I haven't seen before, I do appreciate everyone's guidance. This community is a wealth of knowledge for me.

 

[BuickGirlFromMars]

Did you replace the upper intake only? When you have the stovepipe issue, its best to replace both intakes. I did a skim over the thread but I didnt recall if we covered this or not

 

[fishinfool56]

Yea, doing upper and lower. Just waiting for lower set to be delivered. It was the infamous "delayed in transit " from Amazon. I put 15lbs on the system with a pressure tester, then started the car and cooling system pressure dropped to 4lbs. I didnt wanna take a chance on doing the upper only. Someone before me actually replaced the plenum with a dorman aftermarket one. If I had to guess I'd say it was the upper leaking judging by the goopy mixture I encountered when I got it off. There was actual gobs of jelly like substance sitting on top of the lower.

Did you replace the upper intake only? When you have the stovepipe issue, its best to replace both intakes. I did a skim over the thread but I didnt recall if we covered this or not

 

[BuickGirlFromMars]

Yea, doing upper and lower. Just waiting for lower set to be delivered. It was the infamous "delayed in transit " from Amazon. I put 15lbs on the system with a pressure tester, then started the car and cooling system pressure dropped to 4lbs. I didnt wanna take a chance on doing the upper only. Someone before me actually replaced the plenum with a dorman aftermarket one. If I had to guess I'd say it was the upper leaking judging by the goopy mixture I encountered when I got it off. There was actual gobs of jelly like substance sitting on top of the lower.

so to be clear you are replacing the lower intake manifold and the gaskets with the upgraded metal ones (between the lower and engine), i believe the ones between the lower and upper manifold may be metal but not sure, ive not done the job on a L36 before. @HotZ28 would know. Theres a chance your dorman manifold isnt flat. can you take a straight edge and confirm its flat around the important spots? The cooling system dropping to 4lb when running could have been a factor of your water pump rotating things and I wouldnt read into that unless you pumped it up after it was running and you were unable to keep it up with the tester. There could have been air pocket basically that just relieved the pressure to 4lbs.

Did you buy gm gaskets