Road Force balancing, vibration questions

[InfiniteImp]

I know there have been several threads about this but I can't recall as to whether any conclusions were reached. I'm experiencing a mild vibration when I go over 90 km/h (about 56 mph). I feel it mostly in the seat but also a bit in the steering wheel. Sometimes it's more apparent, other times it's barely noticable. I can't exactly explain why.

I've had this since I bought the car 2 years ago and so far, no solution. I decided that I've finally had enough and would pay for a Road Force balance at the dealer's ($160) just to finally be rid of it. I should have acted sooner but with other issues taking a higher priority and me really not wanting to visit my former dealership AGAIN, I kept putting it off.

So, I did take it to my current dealer last week and they had the car for the day, performing the road force balance. In the end, nothing improved. I was told by the dealership's front end specialist that one of the tires just would not balance. He said he could not get it "under 60", whatever that means. Apparently the other tires were "within 20" which is ok although he says he likes to see "10 - 15" to ensure no vibrtation. I spoke to the service rep and apparently the tires are not warrantied for this given that the car has over 40,000km on it. Had I reported it within the first 20,000km, it could have been covered.

The vibration issue did not happen with my winters so I have to presume it's my summers causing the problem rather than some other part of the car. The dealership says the next step is to replace the tire and it has to done in pairs due to the fact that replacing one tire and keeping the other tire with half the tread gone isn't a good idea. I get that, but I can't say I'm ready to pay $800 for pair of Goodyears (given that it cost me $475 to replace one when it got damaged by something I ran over a few months ago).

Is there anywhere I can go with this? Am I better off putting up with the mild vibration until it comes time to replace the tires?

Thanks.

 

[MHT]

Mistake number one avoid purchasing tires from the dealership. You can purchase that tire from a tire dealer for about $270.00. I would take the car to a GoodYear dealer or a tire dealer that sales Goodyear tires and tell them that one of the tires as been deemed to be bad by the dealer and will not balance, I suspect the tire is out of round, which is not uncommon for a Goodyear tire. Be humble and plead your cause, they may give you a break. I think the tire may qualify for a replacement at a prorated rate.
I would not wait until time to purchase a new set of tires to replace this tire.

Good Luck..............

 

[mmadden2]

Couple thoughts... My car has about 3600 miles on it now and the front tires (Goodyear RS-A) are definitely wearing more quickly than the rears.

Since you've been dealing with this for 2 years now I have to guess that it's been reasonably bearable or you may have addressed it sooner. I wonder if it would be worth it to stop rotating your tires for a while. Keep the bad tire up front where it will get the most wear, and then get a fresh pair when the tread finally wears out or you really can't stand the vibration any longer. Rotating to the rear will only extend it's life. When you finally get all your going to get out of it (thru wear or annoyance), replace the fronts and then resume rotations as recommended. I have no idea if this is a valid/safe idea, it's just a quick thought.

I've been searching out Goodyear alternatives and am somewhat intrigued by the new Cooper Zeon RS3-A. I'm not a consumer reports member but they apparently put them at the top of their UHP (ultra high performance) list and they cost less than $200 a piece, just something to think about...
[Link1 (Consumer Reports reference)] [Link2 (Cooper Site)] [Link3 (Where to buy/reviews)]

And my handy dandy tire chart I've been toying with...



EDIT ************

I also like MHT's idea above, that sounds like a great thing to at least give Goodyear a chance to make things right.

 

[tjc78]

Before I dropped any coin on new tires I would ask the dealer to take a tire from a car on the lot and install it on my car (replacing the tire that "wouldn't balance"). If the vibration goes away, you know the tire is bad, if not the dealer has to work harder to find the source. Not all vibrations are tire related, especially seat of the pants (not steering wheel).

FWIW I had a 2006 Toyota Avalon. It came stock with Bridgestone Turanza EL400s. Not a bad performing tire but wears quickly and gets noisy as it does. At around 27K they were shot and I installed Goodyear Eagle GTs. They were never balanced 100% and I was never happy.

 

[InfiniteImp]

Mistake number one avoid purchasing tires from the dealership. You can purchase that tire from a tire dealer for about $270.00. I would take the car to a GoodYear dealer or a tire dealer that sales Goodyear tires and tell them that one of the tires as been deemed to be bad by the dealer and will not balance, I suspect the tire is out of round, which is not uncommon for a Goodyear tire. Be humble and plead your cause, they may give you a break. I think the tire may qualify for a replacement at a prorated rate.
I would not wait until time to purchase a new set of tires to replace this tire.

Good Luck..............

Appreciate that. Actually the one tire I did purchase was not from the dealer.. it was from a local tire shop (Active Green and Ross). Obviously not any better than the dealer as far as pricing goes, or Goodyears are just generally really overpriced. I would have to get the dealer to identify the tire which fails to balance and see if this is the one I got from the tire shop, the hope the warranty will do something for me. That's assuming the dealer doesn't offer to do something for me after some complaining and pressuring. Not sure which way to go.

 

[InfiniteImp]

Couple thoughts... My car has about 3600 miles on it now and the front tires (Goodyear RS-A) are definitely wearing more quickly than the rears.

Since you've been dealing with this for 2 years now I have to guess that it's been reasonably bearable or you may have addressed it sooner. I wonder if it would be worth it to stop rotating your tires for a while. Keep the bad tire up front where it will get the most wear, and then get a fresh pair when the tread finally wears out or you really can't stand the vibration any longer. Rotating to the rear will only extend it's life. When you finally get all your going to get out of it (thru wear or annoyance), replace the fronts and then resume rotations as recommended. I have no idea if this is a valid/safe idea, it's just a quick thought.

I've been searching out Goodyear alternatives and am somewhat intrigued by the new Cooper Zeon RS3-A. I'm not a consumer reports member but they apparently put them at the top of their UHP (ultra high performance) list and they cost less than $200 a piece, just something to think about...

Ya, it is quite tolerable, no doubt about that, just that every time I feel it I want it to be gone and to have a nice and smooth drive. It's like that little squeak you hear from time to time somewhere in the car... nothing serious but you just want it gone so you don't keep focusing on it when it happens.

As for rotating, the dealer actually rotated the bad tire to the back so as to lessen the vibration effect. Didn't make any difference.. if anything, it's a little worse in that I now feel it at 90km/h whereas I used to start feeling it at 100km/h before. Then again, there's this morning's drive in to work... hardly felt anything at all. Really strange.

As for the Cooper tire you mentioned... it's all in the fine print it seems. Here's what their web site says about that tire:

"Premium Limited Warranty (U.S. Only)
Free 45-Day Road Test (U.S. Only)
40,000 Mile Treadwear Protection (U.S. Only)"

That's a lot of "U.S. Only"s for a Canadian guy like me. Ah well. There are always other choices.

 

[InfiniteImp]

Before I dropped any coin on new tires I would ask the dealer to take a tire from a car on the lot and install it on my car (replacing the tire that "wouldn't balance"). If the vibration goes away, you know the tire is bad, if not the dealer has to work harder to find the source. Not all vibrations are tire related, especially seat of the pants (not steering wheel).

I like that idea.. but that's assuming I had any intention of buying the tire at the dealer. I just get this feeling I'll get hosed on tire pricing if I go with them. I'll try it, we'll see what they offer. I'll also see if, after a little pushing and a chat with the manager, if there's anything they can do as far as talking with Goodyear on my behalf to see if they can provide any warranty on the tires, seeing as they are factory originals.

I know the vibration can come from elsewhere, but if the vibration is not present when using my winter tires/rims, does that not mean that it would have to be my summer wheels/tires?

FWIW I had a 2006 Toyota Avalon. It came stock with Bridgestone Turanza EL400s. Not a bad performing tire but wears quickly and gets noisy as it does. At around 27K they were shot and I installed Goodyear Eagle GTs. They were never balanced 100% and I was never happy.

I'm not a fan of Goodyears. I've had several new cars come with them (presumably Goodyear must give ridiculously low volume pricing to the auto manufacturers) and in each case, I got both better value and less road noise after I replaced them with another brand.

 

[mmadden2]

"Premium Limited Warranty (U.S. Only)
Free 45-Day Road Test (U.S. Only)
40,000 Mile Treadwear Protection (U.S. Only)"

That's a lot of "U.S. Only"s for a Canadian guy like me.

Cripes, I missed that, sorry.

In that case give car to wife, buy something better 🙂

 

[tjc78]

I know the vibration can come from elsewhere, but if the vibration is not present when using my winter tires/rims, does that not mean that it would have to be my summer wheels/tires?.

Yes, you are correct. I missed that detail.

 

[InfiniteImp]

Cripes, I missed that, sorry.

In that case give car to wife, buy something better 🙂

To Do:

1. Obtain woman
2. Marry woman
3. Give car

You know, I think it would be cheaper to just buy a new set of tires. WAAAY cheaper! 🙂

 

[Buick Customer Service]

Have you been in contact with GM of Canada? Unfortunately I primarily specialize in working with customers in the US. I would recommend that you contact GM of Canada at 800-263-3777 if you have not done so. The hours of operation are M-F 7:30am - 11:30pm, Sat 7:30am - 6:00 EST. Please feel free to keep me posted or contact me with further questions. Thank you.

Tricia, Buick Customer Service.

 

[mmadden2]

To Do:

1. Obtain woman
2. Marry woman
3. Give car

You know, I think it would be cheaper to just buy a new set of tires. WAAAY cheaper! 🙂

In that case, let me give you some friendly advice... Find a girl with money- lots of it.

 

[tposey7591]

For your information, Road force balancing is a scam period. All and i mean ALL vibration is caused by tire/wheel assembly. Usually 99% of the time TIRES. If the tires are properly balanced and NOT DEFECTIVE. the car's front end can be loose as a goose, out of alignment, etc., and you will not get vibration/shimmy/shaking, etc on a relatively smooth road. As I have mention in numerous articles and borne out of extensive experience, Several factors cause vibration from tires. Simple out of balance; tire run out both circumference and lateral; non-linear circumference tread/sidewall stiffness;

 

[tposey7591]

Sorry, I must have hit the send button before I was finished. To continue: The most likely problem is TIRE TREAD SEPARATION. This condition is extremely hard to detect with an inspection unless the tread has separated to the point of causing a bulge. GOODYEAR TIRES are notorious for this problem and they have not been able to correct it in over forty years of making radial tires. My suggestion to you is to get rid of those Goodyear tires and try to get lucky with another tire maker. The other alternative but more hit and miss but less expensive is to experiment with finding the best two and install on the front. Tire problems causing vibration are much less sensitive on the rear of the vehicle. Good luck.

 

[tjc78]

All and i mean ALL vibration is caused by tire/wheel assembly. Usually 99% of the time TIRES.;

Huh? You have obviously never driven a RWD car with a driveshaft that is out of balance. Bad motor/tranny mounts can also cause vibration. Worn CV joints on a FWD drive car as well.

The most common cause is indeed tire/wheel related but certainly not the only cause of vibration.

 

[tposey7591]

There you go again with an out of context BS reply. What about an out of balance engine fly wheel, or harmonic balancer or bent axle/spindle or inoperative struts/shocks or out of balance crank shaft or piston/rod assembly. Or possibly too much coffee in the morning. In case you didn't notice or bother to actually read and understand the issue was TIRES. No wonder many people get fed up with this forum and leave. You and some like you on this forum are more interested in sharp shooting/work smithing than actually trying to help a fellow car owner.

 

[pogster]

For your information, Road force balancing is a scam period.

So why is putting the tire/wheel assembly on a Road Force machine a scam?

 

[tposey7591]

It's a scam simply because you are trying to correct a DEFECTIVE TIRE problem by paying out $160.00 for tire balancing when tire balance is not the problem. Any correctly calibrated and properly used dynamic tire balancing machine can easily indicate the proper position for necessary wheel weights to bring a wheel/tire assembly into dynamic balance. Nothing complicated about it. When you have to go to extreme measure to eliminate wheel/tire vibration, the issue is more than tire balance. As mention, any wheel weight more than 1.5 oz. placed in any position on a wheel to bring it into dynamic balance is suspicious. That usually indicates that a mass of rubber usually at the tire mold joint is excessive and can cause nonlinear circumference stiffness. When the vehicle's weight comes around to that point on the tire, the sidewall does not flex as much at that point, hence tire/road vibration. Other issues such as run out, tread and or sidewall will obviously cause shimmy and vibration. Another common issue is tread separation. It can start slowly and often times in one spot. There is NO, NO easy way to detect that condition until it gets to the point of causing a bulge on the tread. That too will cause vibration but often can be balanced out temporarily but like Arnold it will return as the condition progresses even to the point of tire failure. The SCAM is being led to believe that Road Force Balancing will somehow correct a Defective Tire Problem and having to pay big bucks to learn the hard way that it only marginally helped and only temporarily at best. If you have tires that cannot be easily and properly balanced with little to no vibration on a smooth road surface, take them back to the supplier and demand they be replaced. Eventually tire manufacturers will get the message and better quality control their product.

 

[Mad*Max]

Appreciate that. Actually the one tire I did purchase was not from the dealer.. it was from a local tire shop (Active Green and Ross). Obviously not any better than the dealer as far as pricing goes, or Goodyears are just generally really overpriced. I would have to get the dealer to identify the tire which fails to balance and see if this is the one I got from the tire shop, the hope the warranty will do something for me. That's assuming the dealer doesn't offer to do something for me after some complaining and pressuring. Not sure which way to go.

if you are gonna get GY then call John at Bramalea Tire to get a price - back in the day I have bought lots of GYs from him, at that time he had the best price in town and even used to sell road hazard which I find hard to get in Canada

 

[InfiniteImp]

Have you been in contact with GM of Canada? Unfortunately I primarily specialize in working with customers in the US. I would recommend that you contact GM of Canada at 800-263-3777 if you have not done so. The hours of operation are M-F 7:30am - 11:30pm, Sat 7:30am - 6:00 EST. Please feel free to keep me posted or contact me with further questions. Thank you.

Thanks for the info. I'm starting at the dealership level. I asked them to see what they could do for me, perhaps by speaking to Goodyear on my behalf. If they are unable or unwilling to help me out with the expense, I will follow your advice and call GM Canada.