K&N drop in filter recommended for GS owners

[FBRR]

on second thought! Never mind!

 

[synolimit]

Some may not like to hear it, but a FILTER that flow MORE air in the same space! Allows more contaminates.
Also Oil form filters can and does contaminate both MAF sensors and more importantly O2 sensors. Some MAF sensors can be cleaned but O2 sensor once the oil hits the sensor will yeild incorrect output!

it can. but a regal doesnt drive in the desert, off roading and the motor doesnt get the opportunity to pick up those contaminates as ive proved being an ohio driver driving in all conditions from heavy rain, snow, heavy salt, dust from back roads and high heat and humidity with my several oil analyses showing better than normal contaminate levels.

the amount of oil on a stock K&N (not someone over lubing when they clean and reoil) is nowhere near enough oil to leave the filter and get the MAF dirty! i pull my MAF every oil change and it is 99% clean as a whistle!

you're insane if you think the micrograms of oil from a foam filter will make it though the intake system, and not get burned up in the combustion chamber and contaminate an O2 sensor is absurd!!! the biggest reason why you are so incorrect is every late model car has a PCV valve!! its job is to pull heavy, dirty, nasty oil blow by and fumes from the crank case and plumb it into the intake and then the combustion chamber to be burned up. also oil makes its way into the intake system from the valve vents. the amount of oil the PCV pulls is tens of thousands of times more oil than any oil a foam filter would ever put into the system in 100 life times. last i check my O2's last tens if not hundreds of thousands of miles without issue or failing from the PCV oil blow by or valve cover vent.

Two points here an incorrect O2 sensor output can and does effected fueling.
Second point many fail to realize is MAF sensors are not ABSOLUTE! In that I mean just slapping a MAL on an application does not result in Mass Air Measurement! It will give an output, but all MAF sensor in production application has a "Characteristic curve." That CURVE is output in voltage vs. MASS AIR FLOW. Changes in Ducting, flow, and Air cleaner characteristics, will change the SENSOR output vs. MASS OF AIR! )

true but again O2 senors take thousands of miles to get dirty and the combustion chamber does a good job burning up all blow by from crank and valve vents which is a million times more oil than an oil filter could ever produce.

When the air cleaner is changed, it may not be a straight linear SHIFT in the characteristic curve for the MAF output! So it may be well within a given amount of change at some Speed and load points and well outside the amount needed for a "CEL MALF" at other points!

true that is why most people contact a tuner or reseach about what intakes do what. a K&N drop in, in 9 out of 10 cars will do nothing!! a short ram or CAI K&N or other manufacture with different tubing is another story. we are only talking about a drop in here.

But without a doubt changing an Air cleaner that changes flow, effects MAF sensor OUTPUT!

true again, but again a drop in still uses the stock MAF diameter pipe and therefore is to small of a change to effect almost every car on the road!!

One last thought for those that think they know how a MAF works, modern MAF systems in most application are also SPEED DENSITY under some conditions!!
During reversion a MAF sensor cannot always be trusted, so some speed density tables exists in software, for those points where MAF output appears to OUTSIDE of a window where Speed density "predicts" Mass of Airflow.

none of the 4cyl turbo cars that i know of. SD needs defined definitions that tuners like COBB spend thousands of hours on defining and then you need to up load to an AP and then tune it to make it work. this makes the MAF useless unless you have an integrated IAT in the MAF that of course only looks as a intake temp. SD is a great tool as long as you never travel out of where you live because it cant make the necessary changes to the fuel curve so im going to have to say this is an incorrect statement by you even if its only used "sometimes." can you site a car?

Changing an AIRCLEANER to a high flow can set a CEL.

system yes, filter no.

 

[FBRR]

I won't bother to respond to every "misunderstanding" you have about how a system is calibrated! But first, I have had a "stock" filter cause OBD II diagnostice issues!
(development of Supercharged engine! Guess which one? simply by ROTATING it in the housing! of the Aircleaner!)


Thiry years an powertrain engineer.
I am retired and have no worries speaking up on the forum to help folks understand, but I have no need to get into a pissing contest with someone that only guesses at how it works.

I will refrain from trying to help with the knowledge base here...
Cheers.
-----------------------------------------------------------
"none of the 4cyl turbo cars that i know of. SD needs defined definitions that tuners like COBB spend thousands of hours on defining and then you need to up load to an AP and then tune it to make it work."

And for the record!

EVERY four cylinder engine I have ever released a calibrations into production, have had Speed density tables for Air management both with and without a MAF sensor!

And once again I must of had my air management specialist buisy calibrating tables that WEREN'T used!


I've said it before, and as this is my last post I will say it again! Go ahead and MOD and TUNE that is not an issue. But be ready for a NO warrenty claim when the unintended consequence of YOUR actions limits durablity of the engine. There are a hand full of folks that really know how the system works.( most are doing the work, not tuning!) You can ALWAYS get more from a given package! Knowing what durablity concerns you have accepted for a given change, is what most "tuners" neither know nor pay for when it fails!
Cheers

 

[FBRR]

After a good night’s sleep I decide to add a couple of comments. One thing that has always been a "sore point" when reading forums such as this are the "tuners" and modders, that make statement like “the factory tune" sucks. . And "my change" could not possibly effect THAT!
It is not a factory "tune" but a calibration.
What I always ask is why does a person that hasn't lived with an engine in development for several years think they know more than the guy that did the job.
Engineers that do calibration want the most performance and drivability they can get from a package. They not only know "how the software works" but they invented its function. And they then spend several years in development in All temperatures, altitude, and road trips all over the US and Canada doing testing and DURABLITY work on these packages.
When something is less than "optimal" there is normally a very good reason why! Durability is a prime reason to limit output. And compromises are "KNOWINGLY" made when calibrations are developed. Sometimes it's hardware limitation and sometimes limitations that effect overall performance are a result of a narrow band "side effect". (Something that only 1 in a hundred persons might put their vehicle through! But for production, 1 in a 100 failure is HUGE)
I know the guys that do this work, they are very smart folks that understand the WHOLE system and it's limitations. (they also must comply with "other" hardware limitations, such as transmission load requirements! Trans guys hate POWER~a small joke, but they would shift under no load every time if they could!)
Development and calibration is always a choice of what is most important. For engine development and "calibration", that is durability of the engine and vehicle FIRST.
Tuners do not have that limitation. Getting more power is the goal for aftermarket tuners. They may not even fully understand the compromise they make when adding fuel and spark in a dyno environment, and how their changes impact long range durability!
Lastly, engines are not constant. Testing and calibration take place with not only NEW engines but aged parts that must continue to function correctly with miles. A new combustion chamber has far different requirements for spark than one with "aged" deposits. O2 sensor output changes over the life of the engine and has direct impact on fuel control over that engine LIFE. Production release must encompass all of those "life cycle" variables when released. "Tuners" deal with a very small sample of an engines and therefore have limited experience with aging of components, yet they GUESS at how their changes will effect durability.(ECM time is measured in MSEC. and many functions in modern software have "look ahead" features that are calibrated, and predict a range of output expected. Tuner cannot know nor even begin to use the tables that predict "look ahead" function.)

That is why I have said, for folks that want to "mod" and tune, just do so knowing you might also be limiting durability of some component in the system.
When an OBD II code comes on and you don't "think" it had anything to do with your change, you might just not understand "everything" you know. Engine calibration is a very complex system and more interrelated across the vehicle. ECM, TCM, BCM, and Cluster control modules all share and make changes based on inputs from those other control moduals. If you don't know how it works it's impossible to say, that change would not "effect" that problem.
I hope my input here can help some make more informed choices when making "modifications" to a calibrated system.

 

[GMRedline]

^^^ Well said.

Most of the things you mention probably sound so common sense to people like yourself it sounds absurd to even mention it. But I don't think the majority of people truly understand it to the level you just described.

I live in WI and I have access to 93 octane fuel. Just by having access to that fuel means that I could find ways to improve the performance of any factory calibration on any vehicle while maintaining the long term durability of the factory calibration.

BUT

That does not mean that someone who lives in the rural parts of Canada could say the same thing. The "premium" fuel choice might only be 89 octane. Eww... As a tuner myself, I would not even touch that person's car.

So I completely understand why manufacturers don't sell cars with calibrations optimized for Eric in WI or Joe in Alberta.

That is where tuners fill the gaps. Honestly, the main reason tuners knock factory calibrations is to promote their own services. It is the sad but honest truth.

Hang in there buddy!

 

[FatherDeth]

your first hand experance have any data to back it up?

oh thats right. none.


just a sucker that fell for KN marketing.

Really? You're going to sit there and post that people who bought a K&N filter got suckered by K&N. For your information, I only buy K&N filters for the money saved rather than buying OEM paper filters. And my 16 year old Geo Tracker has a custom built HAI by me that utilizes a K&N cone filter and the engine still runs as good as day one.

 

[FatherDeth]

^^^ Well said.

Most of the things you mention probably sound so common sense to people like yourself it sounds absurd to even mention it. But I don't think the majority of people truly understand it to the level you just described.

I live in WI and I have access to 93 octane fuel. Just by having access to that fuel means that I could find ways to improve the performance of any factory calibration on any vehicle while maintaining the long term durability of the factory calibration.

BUT

That does not mean that someone who lives in the rural parts of Canada could say the same thing. The "premium" fuel choice might only be 89 octane. Eww... As a tuner myself, I would not even touch that person's car.

So I completely understand why manufacturers don't sell cars with calibrations optimized for Eric in WI or Joe in Alberta.

That is where tuners fill the gaps. Honestly, the main reason tuners knock factory calibrations is to promote their own services. It is the sad but honest truth.

Hang in there buddy!

Most of you are forgetting one important fact. The GOVERNMENT has a lot to do with OEM tunes or calibrations as some of you smart, old engineers dub them. The stock parameters on a GS are horrible to say the least. If you gave the key fob over to someone who has never driven a GS, they'd never know this car has 295 lb ft. It could be soooo much better. A better tune on this car would result in even less gas mileage and GM has to have a certain amount of cars that get decent mileage. As far as GM is concerned, someone who buys a GS isn't looking for CTS-V performance numbers, so the GS suffers.

 

[zinner]

Well we got our first k&n filter flame thread out of the way I think we are on the way to becoming a car forum.

 

[slow-90lx]

Well we got our first k&n filter flame thread out of the way I think we are on the way to becoming a car forum.

Now onto more important things, like should I list zaino and my lloyd floor matts as mods in my sig.

 

[GMRedline]

Most of you are forgetting one important fact. The GOVERNMENT has a lot to do with OEM tunes or calibrations as some of you smart, old engineers dub them. The stock parameters on a GS are horrible to say the least. If you gave the key fob over to someone who has never driven a GS, they'd never know this car has 295 lb ft. It could be soooo much better.

I am not sure if I blame the lame feeling of 295btq on the tune or the weight of the car...

A better tune on this car would result in even less gas mileage and GM has to have a certain amount of cars that get decent mileage.

Not necessarily. A better tune does not mean the fuel economy has to suffer. All Maf controlled PCMs work pretty much the same.

"Basically" the Maf reads the amount of air entering the engine and then adds fuel accordingly.

Then the primary O2 sensor reads the resulting AFR of the exhaust gases and makes corrections to keep the AFRs are as close to stoich 14.69 as possible. Those corrections are called Fuel Trims represented by Long Term Fuel Trims (LTFSs) and Short Term Fuel Trims (STFTs). LTFTs are adjustments to the fueling that modify fueling for longer periods of time and STFTs are adjustments to the LTFTs to either add or subtract fuel almost every second. LTFTs adjust slowly and STFTs adjust rapidly.

When you jump on the highway and first set your cruise your LTFTs might be -6% and your STFTs might fluctuate between -3% to -6%. That means that the primary O2 sensor is finding out that the Maf calibration is rich. So it is subtracting 6% of fuel indicated by the LTFTs and subtracting an additional 3 to 6% from the STFTs to get the AFR as close to stoich as possible. Meaning the overall Maf calibration is off between 9% and 12% rich. Another mile or two down the road with a steady speed and load the LTFTs might change to -10% and the STFTs will be 0.

Meaning that the Maf calibrations is off by ~ 10% at that point in the Maf. Taking into consideration of all the conditions discussed earlier in this thread regarding all the things that need to be taken into account with a factory tune it is nearly impossible to have one maf calibration that is perfect for everyone. So it is common to see factory Maf calibrations off by 5% to 15%.

A properly calibrated Maf will have more precise fueling and provide better fuel economy. A car with LTFSs < 1% will get better fuel economy then one with bad fuel trims. When the O2 sensor is making fueling adjustments it is not as precise. Its actually kind of sloppy. I am not sure if you have any kind of scan gauge but watch your fuel trims while driving...

So that is one way it can get better fuel economy.

Another way is by optimizing the timing table for the quality of fuel that the car will run. Even if the car requires "Premuim" fuel from the factory GM only calibrates the timing based off of 91 octane. If 93 octane is available in your area there are gains to made in the timing table under cruise. Adding a few degrees of timing under cruise can free up HP. Free HP is improved fuel economy since the Maf is still providing the same amount of fuel.

Even under Wide Open Throttle a good custom tune can improve Fuel economy over a factory calibration. Leaving the boost levels the same, factory tunes are typically tuned rich for extra safety. On a factory tune, the PCM might command an AFR of 11.3 at WOT which is rich. On a good custom tune you could easily run AFRs from 11.8 to 12.4 on a LHU. So better fuel economy at WOT is also easily achievable.

So under many different situations a good custom tune can provide better fuel economy then the factory tune.

If you increase the boost then of course you need more fuel.

Again, its really not fair for you to expect GM to come up with one calibration optimized for Wrightstown, NJ during the winter which is also optimized for Death Valley, AZ during the summer.

The other thing to keep in mind is that if you get a tune that is customized for peak performance in Wrightstown, NJ you better NOT take it to Death Valley, AZ and expect it to perform the same...

 

[MayorMcCheese]

has anyone posted a video?

i want to mod my car just small stuff and this is one thing id be interested in

 

[Stingray]

Stock tune imho is dangerous, numerous times I have pulled out of a parking lot to find the car lazy or unresponsive with traffic quickly overtaking me. I'm nearly half throttle before the car decided to motivate.

One of these brilliant engineers also seemed to of missed the widespread engine stutter a number of use have at stop lights. No one seems able to diagnose it.

As the previous owner of a C5 Vette, the car was predictable. In fact all of my other cars have been predictable. My GS in stock trim was not.

Trifecta tune cured the cars random laziness.

After a good night’s sleep I decide to add a couple of comments. One thing that has always been a "sore point" when reading forums such as this are the "tuners" and modders, that make statement like “the factory tune" sucks. . And "my change" could not possibly effect THAT!
It is not a factory "tune" but a calibration.
What I always ask is why does a person that hasn't lived with an engine in development for several years think they know more than the guy that did the job.
Engineers that do calibration want the most performance and drivability they can get from a package. They not only know "how the software works" but they invented its function. And they then spend several years in development in All temperatures, altitude, and road trips all over the US and Canada doing testing and DURABLITY work on these packages.
When something is less than "optimal" there is normally a very good reason why! Durability is a prime reason to limit output. And compromises are "KNOWINGLY" made when calibrations are developed. Sometimes it's hardware limitation and sometimes limitations that effect overall performance are a result of a narrow band "side effect". (Something that only 1 in a hundred persons might put their vehicle through! But for production, 1 in a 100 failure is HUGE)
I know the guys that do this work, they are very smart folks that understand the WHOLE system and it's limitations. (they also must comply with "other" hardware limitations, such as transmission load requirements! Trans guys hate POWER~a small joke, but they would shift under no load every time if they could!)
Development and calibration is always a choice of what is most important. For engine development and "calibration", that is durability of the engine and vehicle FIRST.
Tuners do not have that limitation. Getting more power is the goal for aftermarket tuners. They may not even fully understand the compromise they make when adding fuel and spark in a dyno environment, and how their changes impact long range durability!
Lastly, engines are not constant. Testing and calibration take place with not only NEW engines but aged parts that must continue to function correctly with miles. A new combustion chamber has far different requirements for spark than one with "aged" deposits. O2 sensor output changes over the life of the engine and has direct impact on fuel control over that engine LIFE. Production release must encompass all of those "life cycle" variables when released. "Tuners" deal with a very small sample of an engines and therefore have limited experience with aging of components, yet they GUESS at how their changes will effect durability.(ECM time is measured in MSEC. and many functions in modern software have "look ahead" features that are calibrated, and predict a range of output expected. Tuner cannot know nor even begin to use the tables that predict "look ahead" function.)

That is why I have said, for folks that want to "mod" and tune, just do so knowing you might also be limiting durability of some component in the system.
When an OBD II code comes on and you don't "think" it had anything to do with your change, you might just not understand "everything" you know. Engine calibration is a very complex system and more interrelated across the vehicle. ECM, TCM, BCM, and Cluster control modules all share and make changes based on inputs from those other control moduals. If you don't know how it works it's impossible to say, that change would not "effect" that problem.
I hope my input here can help some make more informed choices when making "modifications" to a calibrated system.

 

[MayorMcCheese]

im on the fence of making this purcahse.. as i would like the increased throttle response.. ive noticed that slight better response in all my cars..

im not sure if im willing to lose a little mid to high RPM power than again i just got my GS so let me hold my horses here

but i always laughed at fellow forum members on different forums who purchased air filters and here i am now debating on buying one myself

 

[tmitty]

Just be warned. 2012 GS...The dealer didn't cover a repair of the MAF because of the K&N. It cost me almost $600. I'm going to sue them in small claims court because there is absolutely no proof of this. I've had a K&N in every car I've owned...never had a problem. Either way, it's a real pain in the ass. Take the filter out before you bring your car in for service.

 

[NHRATA01]

Just be warned. 2012 GS...The dealer didn't cover a repair of the MAF because of the K&N. It cost me almost $600. I'm going to sue them in small claims court because there is absolutely no proof of this. I've had a K&N in every car I've owned...never had a problem. Either way, it's a real pain in the ass. Take the filter out before you bring your car in for service.

That TSB has been around for a long time, at least 10 years. I think I even posted it earlier in the thread. You'll probably lose, it's a common problem of filter oil covering the elements in the MAF and giving incorrect readings.

 

[dudie7]

That TSB has been around for a long time, at least 10 years. I think I even posted it earlier in the thread. You'll probably lose, it's a common problem of filter oil covering the elements in the MAF and giving incorrect readings.

I had a K&N in my 06 Impala SS...I used too much oil on the filter and my engine light came on. You have to use just enough to "wet" the filter and let the oil diffuse through the rest of the filter. I'm assuming this one works the same way...I'll find out soon enough.

 

[tmitty]

The filter was brand new. It was 2012...not enough time to need a re-charge. Yes, re-charging the filter almost always leads to over oiling..I've done it before...and it didn't cause a permanent problem. The dealer is full of shit. The turbo intake hose was ripped too. They replaced that under warranty, but the maf malfunction HAD to be caused by a K&N drop in that already had 10,000 miles on it?...really?!!!

 

[dudie7]

Mine will be here tomorrow!

 

[GTXgp]

Sometimes new K&N's come a little over soaked... you can sometimes see the oil on the rubber gasket around the filter. I make a habit of wiping a new filter with a paper towel before installing just to make sure there isn't any extra oil.

I've had the drop-in in the GS for year now with no problems. For that matter, I've had K&Ns in almost every car I've owned (over 30 cars/trucks at least) without any problems. Then again, I never keep the car long enough to need a re-oil 😛

Adam

 

[dudie7]

Sometimes new K&N's come a little over soaked... you can sometimes see the oil on the rubber gasket around the filter. I make a habit of wiping a new filter with a paper towel before installing just to make sure there isn't any extra oil.

I've had the drop-in in the GS for year now with no problems. For that matter, I've had K&Ns in almost every car I've owned (over 30 cars/trucks at least) without any problems. Then again, I never keep the car long enough to need a re-oil 😛

Adam

Yep, got the filter today and it had some residual oil around the gasket. Dropped it in...ready to ride. How's it running for you?